No Items, Fox Only, Final Destination

Maybe You Can Come Back in the Prequel?
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No Items, Fox Only, Final Destination

Postby sphenodont » 08 Aug 2014, 09:14:53

Welcome to the Dead Thread.

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Re: No Items, Fox Only, Final Destination

Postby sphenodont » 08 Aug 2014, 09:28:57

Role list and death order generated via random.org with seed "GameLXXIIinitialize".

I'll determine the Reapers by randomizing the list with "TWG72sevensixtyone", and then take every (61 mod 7) positions as the specials. (First will be Death, last will be the Altruist.)

I wanted to get more deaths written up, but so far, not much. It's been brutal at work. I'll see what I can get done, though.

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Re: No Items, Fox Only, Final Destination

Postby necklessone » 08 Aug 2014, 09:52:26

So, back in 2000 I had just graduated high school. My friends and I pretty much made an effort to go see a movie every Friday night as a way to put off the fact that we were all going to be leaving for college in a few months.

Final Destination was the second worse movie I saw that summer (looking at you, Nutty Professor II). I just couldn't get into it for some reason. I wonder if I went back now and watched it if I'd enjoy it more. I'm usually a big fan of Morgan and Wong's work. I went to see the last movie in theaters and really enjoyed it once I completely turned my brain off.

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Re: No Items, Fox Only, Final Destination

Postby sphenodont » 08 Aug 2014, 11:04:30

I think turning your brain off is a prerequisite for watching the movies.

I think the third is my favorite of them, with the second being my least favorite. I'm not a particular fan, but they're fun diversions.

I wish I'd been able to track down at least one of the books to see how they write out the death scenes.

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Re: No Items, Fox Only, Final Destination

Postby sphenodont » 12 Aug 2014, 07:06:05

Bleh, running behind and running on fumes here.

Anyway, Aldax is death, and Okaros, Omega, and Stigmata end up as Reapers. I'm dropping the Altruist/GA role.

I wasn't kidding, btw. I really screwed up the numbers on this one in asking for that many predictions. The number of people who choose Omega and stigmata invalidated almost everyone.

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Re: No Items, Fox Only, Final Destination

Postby sphenodont » 13 Aug 2014, 19:24:59

Sorry, sniper, but you're dead. They decided to let you go first.

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Re: No Items, Fox Only, Final Destination

Postby Blindsniper83 » 13 Aug 2014, 19:31:10

no worries, i forgot to turn on pc after i fixed power issues, until just now ( yay late work nights )
RaveBomb making a lot of sense is how you know you're past the point of no return and that death is the only escape.

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Re: No Items, Fox Only, Final Destination

Postby Admetus » 14 Aug 2014, 21:15:28

Heyyo. Busy times for me, so getting mauled isn't terrible news. I would have had much more time this weekend, but c'est la vie.

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Re: No Items, Fox Only, Final Destination

Postby That PJ » 15 Aug 2014, 03:39:01

Yeah, I'm not especially bummed. Wasn't having a lot of time, anyway.

Although the rush to pile on me at the end was distinctly odd.
PJ's general resignation towards fate is good enough. -Okaros
Then he went and shot himself, saved me and got himself lynched because of it. You magnificent fool! -Mister E. Meat

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Re: No Items, Fox Only, Final Destination

Postby sphenodont » 15 Aug 2014, 04:58:24

Sorry for the lack of details. This really was not a good time for me to run this game, but I'd already deferred twice. (Putting in twelve hour days when you're running a cold is not fun. :( )

I'll see if I can get the predictions and other fun stuff up, and start archiving the PMs.

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Re: No Items, Fox Only, Final Destination

Postby That PJ » 15 Aug 2014, 11:42:56

Took a brief tour around the dead area here. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it appears that Furin must be the psychic, because every other possibility has been invalidated. That being the case...

1. What happens if his next prediction is wrong? (i.e., he invalidates)
2. What happens if he dies? (same thing, really; he's his own last prediction, so he's a paradox)

Do those situations basically mean survivors win?
PJ's general resignation towards fate is good enough. -Okaros
Then he went and shot himself, saved me and got himself lynched because of it. You magnificent fool! -Mister E. Meat

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Re: No Items, Fox Only, Final Destination

Postby sphenodont » 15 Aug 2014, 19:11:22

Welcome to the Dead, dferrantino and MEM.

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Re: No Items, Fox Only, Final Destination

Postby sphenodont » 15 Aug 2014, 19:12:24

PJ, sorry I didn't see your post earlier. Basically, the humans need to start treating this as vanilla and figuring out who the Reapers are.
I'll post the predictions and the current statuses over the weekend.

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Re: No Items, Fox Only, Final Destination

Postby That PJ » 15 Aug 2014, 19:37:50

sphenodont wrote:PJ, sorry I didn't see your post earlier. Basically, the humans need to start treating this as vanilla and figuring out who the Reapers are.
I'll post the predictions and the current statuses over the weekend.

That doesn't actually answer either question, I think. Are you saying those win conditions are no longer possible? Because I'm pretty sure everyone, Reapers included, think that it is.
PJ's general resignation towards fate is good enough. -Okaros
Then he went and shot himself, saved me and got himself lynched because of it. You magnificent fool! -Mister E. Meat

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Re: No Items, Fox Only, Final Destination

Postby sphenodont » 15 Aug 2014, 19:51:11

Shit, you're right. I didn't catch that.

I'm going to make a special ruling in this case and randomly re-pick his MEM option for him, and then let him (and the wolves) know the True Seer is locked. If MEM hadn't dropped, I wouldn't have asked the wolves to maul him, and they wouldn't have.

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Re: No Items, Fox Only, Final Destination

Postby sphenodont » 15 Aug 2014, 19:53:07

Sleep now. Return to this in the morning.

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Re: No Items, Fox Only, Final Destination

Postby dferrantino » 15 Aug 2014, 20:55:03

Ah, disaster recovery test at work today made my entire day pretty much useless. Sucks :(

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Re: No Items, Fox Only, Final Destination

Postby Admetus » 15 Aug 2014, 21:18:51

Re: treating it as a vanilla. Humans have a pretty big incentive to try to resolve as Psychic, because it builds an immediate human alliance in a PM game. This means any people that think they may be psychic will mess with vote analysis a bit indescriminately.

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Re: No Items, Fox Only, Final Destination

Postby Admetus » 16 Aug 2014, 12:33:03

I'm definitely agreeing with Hellheart today. I was planning on making some deals for votes with people I suspected of being wolves in the mid-game, to keep up the impression I might be a Psychic. Would have done it earlier maybe, but was busy. Who knows, it might have kept me off the maul list, they were avoiding other seer candidates.

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Re: No Items, Fox Only, Final Destination

Postby Admetus » 16 Aug 2014, 22:53:02

Subject: Night 04: Messy Fun

Okaros wrote:(( Spheno, any details to share re: the Psychic?

I may try publicly claiming Psychic (with Hellheart as my Day Four prediction) to try and draw out a public reveal by the real one, but ugh.

I really don't see how we can win at this point. :( ))

Not quite sure how they can out the psychic. If they do, that's just one of the land mines at this point, Furin has 5 outstanding predictions. That's a 6-man human alliance in a PM game. If it were me, I'd just tell everyone to stay cool and not counterclaim.

Even if they play it entirely by the book and don't sacrifice anyone in the HA (because that person would technically lose, not being a surviving human when Death's chain was broken), they can still just lynch the wolf who steps forward. It's an easy sell because they win if the wolf was actually the real Psychic, and they win if the human who was supposed to die does not die today.

I'm thinking the wolf team's chances are incredibly slim right now. They need a big slip-up, like Furin not remembering that revealing himself will also reveal all of his predictions.

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Re: No Items, Fox Only, Final Destination

Postby Admetus » 17 Aug 2014, 08:16:10

Subject: Day 04 - The Wheels on the Bus Fall Off and Burn

Iron Clad Burrito wrote:You bring up a valid point, but looking at it from a different perspective -- Death has protected Snake both times a tiebreaker has been cast now.

Snake is either death, or someone death wants around.

I think this vote means Furin hasn't informed his confirmed humans about each other, yet.

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Re: No Items, Fox Only, Final Destination

Postby sphenodont » 17 Aug 2014, 10:54:28

He hasn't read the PM notifying him of Psychic status yet.

Sorry I was out of it all day yesterday. Trying to figure out what's going on at the moment, which doesn't bode well for the players...

I'm realizing that I've made it very hard for the wolves right now, since by the rules, they could lose tonight without having any information about what's going on. I think I need to give them some information on who to protect.

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Re: No Items, Fox Only, Final Destination

Postby sphenodont » 17 Aug 2014, 17:54:25

I really don't know what to do with Jokerfish. I can't really WOG him, so I suppose I'm stuck just letting him linger in limbo until someone decides to kill him?

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Re: No Items, Fox Only, Final Destination

Postby sphenodont » 17 Aug 2014, 19:24:22

Meta4, Hellheart, welcome to death, where you will always be together, as in life.

Furin, it's a shame the timing didn't work out for you, but you were the seer and you weren't.

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Re: No Items, Fox Only, Final Destination

Postby Meta4 » 17 Aug 2014, 19:46:22

I'm glad I could be such an essential part of the team. ;p
"...it continues to be a bad idea to give in to the urge to lynch Meta4." -Admetus

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Re: No Items, Fox Only, Final Destination

Postby That PJ » 17 Aug 2014, 20:13:04

GM Note: To clarify something that was asked via PM:

If a resolved Psychic is lynched/mauled, then they didn't die last, and axiomatically, they weren't really a resolved Psychic after all.

If a resolved Psychic ends up getting lynched, the win conditions would be a simple elimination/parity attempt.

I don't understand how this game works anymore. If the psychic predictions (self included) mean nothing, what is the point? I'd been of the understanding that any deviation from the resolved psychic's prediction meant a paradox, not 'now the game is vanilla.'
PJ's general resignation towards fate is good enough. -Okaros
Then he went and shot himself, saved me and got himself lynched because of it. You magnificent fool! -Mister E. Meat

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Re: No Items, Fox Only, Final Destination

Postby Hellheart » 17 Aug 2014, 20:19:31

I got Okaros, Stigmata, and Aldax correctly pegged as reapers on this last day. Unfortunately, 8 PM ET ending time is absolutely godawful for me with the way my shifts generally fall. I don't have a smartphone, so I literally cannot post when I'm working unless my gf lends me hers for the day. I decided that I'd cast a phone vote - meaning call my gf and have her check the tally that wasn't posted like I asked - to hopefully keep up the pretense. If I lived, I'd push Okaros or Aldax on Day 5. If I didn't, it's probably for the best because I simply cannot contribute well for this type of game with that EOD time.

I do well with the 10 PM ET end times. Then approximately half of my shifts, if not more, end before that time and I can catch up and make correct decisions.

I wasn't about to push anyone on Day 4. That would break the veneer of believability I hopefully built around my completely bullshit Day 1 vote. There's also that whole thing where I'm almost certain that nobody would actually listen to a wolf case from me that early, and if a day or two passes then...well, goldfish memories.

I was virtually certain that Okaros was a wolf at the end of Day 4. Aldax was a heavy suspect as one of the rash of PM's I got on Day 2 after my start-of-day Stigmata vote. Stigmata was a suspect for the same reason...I mean, I wasn't surprised to get a PM response from him, but Ryvvn's EOD PM response felt more like a normal Ryvvn play than Stigmata's PM did.

--------

That PJ, I'm pretty sure that's just to protect against a "hey guys, I just resolved as the psychic, lynch me and we win" play.
Last edited by Hellheart on 19 Aug 2014, 22:06:53, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: No Items, Fox Only, Final Destination

Postby Hellheart » 17 Aug 2014, 20:22:54

Also, I'd REALLY appreciate it if people stopped believing rekard when he pushes me as a wolf. He's been wrong literally every single time he's done so.

His other criticisms often have some merit, but apparently the way I go about explaining anything, no matter how large or small, comes off as super wolfy to him and he never shakes that off. I'm outright going to ignore future wolf pushes from him because it's a waste of my time.
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Re: No Items, Fox Only, Final Destination

Postby Admetus » 17 Aug 2014, 20:23:28

I thought what was stopping that play was the "only living players win in that scenario" judgment from spheno.

I also thought misordering Furin would lose the game for the wolves.

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Re: No Items, Fox Only, Final Destination

Postby sphenodont » 17 Aug 2014, 20:24:09

Hellheart wrote:That PJ, I'm pretty sure that's just to protect against a "hey guys, I just resolved as the psychic, lynch me and we win" play.


Basically this.

There were too many points that I didn't foresee where the game could just fall apart and the wolves would lose by accident, without any control over things. I want to give them at least a fighting chance.

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Re: No Items, Fox Only, Final Destination

Postby sphenodont » 17 Aug 2014, 20:29:11

My intents for how the game would play out were hampered by a) a bunch of players being too busy to participate b) the GM being too busy to give it a proper effort and c) the players not at all working together behind the scenes.

I think it's C that has thrown me the most (despite having to WOG at least one player, and likely two). I thought people would reveal to their end-game partners and try to work towards it, and it hasn't happened at all.

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Re: No Items, Fox Only, Final Destination

Postby Hellheart » 17 Aug 2014, 20:31:59

God, I am so glad that I had the good sense to not vote Furin to save myself. There's no way I survive the next day if I do something that dumb.

So is Furin still the Psychic, or has MEM's death invalidated that? Ouch, death by maul. That stings, that really does. I did everything I can to make that win happen, Furin, so man is that a slap in the face.

----

spheno, I was pretty sure that rekard was working with at least one other person for their predictions, but I didn't want to outright say that and blow his cover if I was right. I had zero issue with killing him to save myself and Furin if I could have pulled it off.

The issue with contacting your endgame people right away is that if one of them is a Reaper then they'll milk the shit out of that and you won't benefit at all. The other issue is that by contacting your endgame people, you might end up getting one of them mauled, which I thought would immediately invalidate you as a Psychic.
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Re: No Items, Fox Only, Final Destination

Postby Hellheart » 17 Aug 2014, 20:39:00

Future Zark: what the hell, man? I get the rekard vote as the prompt, but none of my other posts were out of my typical range at all. My timing was odd compared to much older games, but it roughly corresponds to how I've been since I started working.

That vote for me felt super wolfy. I felt alright with my vote for rekard because his response to my question and the discussion there gave me human vibes, but prior to that question I was pretty convinced he was a wolf for pushing me and ICB for...well, basically absolutely nothing. He drew the names out of a hat, for all I could tell. And he would've been a decent midgame death prediction if he rubbed too many people the wrong way.
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Re: No Items, Fox Only, Final Destination

Postby Hellheart » 17 Aug 2014, 20:47:09

In any case, I think that after belatedly realizing I had made the really dumb impossible prediction of a Day 1 rekard lynch, I played this game super well considering that through this entire game I've only had the nights to work with because I've been either working afternoon/evening shifts or spending entire days with my gf.

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Re: No Items, Fox Only, Final Destination

Postby That PJ » 18 Aug 2014, 06:28:30

sphenodont wrote:
Hellheart wrote:That PJ, I'm pretty sure that's just to protect against a "hey guys, I just resolved as the psychic, lynch me and we win" play.


Basically this.

There were too many points that I didn't foresee where the game could just fall apart and the wolves would lose by accident, without any control over things. I want to give them at least a fighting chance.

I guess I can understand that, though I refer to Admetus's point above. Self-sacrifice was specifically not a win in this scenario.

It's just unfortunate that it means the whole semi-quantum psychic thing winds up being nothing more than noise to horribly confuse the humans, though at this point I don't think there's any way around radically tilting the game in favor of one side or the other.

I am, however, vehemently against anything that lets rekard's rampant foolishness wind up being accidentally right. :)
PJ's general resignation towards fate is good enough. -Okaros
Then he went and shot himself, saved me and got himself lynched because of it. You magnificent fool! -Mister E. Meat

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Re: No Items, Fox Only, Final Destination

Postby sphenodont » 18 Aug 2014, 06:56:25

Well, I might see what I can scavenge from this and try to work in some failsafes for people dropping out and whatnot. I think there's something workable in the mess, but I just need to do a proper post-mortem.

Once the patient is actually dead, that is.

I was going to allow vigs once the Psychic resolved, but that might be a bit lopside at this point. (In the movies, taking another life would buy you their lifetime, so the idea is that by vigging someone, you'd replace them in the predicted order and possible stay alive longer.)

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Re: No Items, Fox Only, Final Destination

Postby Hellheart » 18 Aug 2014, 11:10:47

sphenodont wrote:Well, I might see what I can scavenge from this and try to work in some failsafes for people dropping out and whatnot. I think there's something workable in the mess, but I just need to do a proper post-mortem.

Once the patient is actually dead, that is.

I was going to allow vigs once the Psychic resolved, but that might be a bit lopside at this point. (In the movies, taking another life would buy you their lifetime, so the idea is that by vigging someone, you'd replace them in the predicted order and possible stay alive longer.)

I really like how the psychic mechanic can muddy up the voting. The maul mechanic probably needs to be moved away from the PM's because that's so difficult to predict and manage, and it would be interesting if every person could freely PM only the Best Friend and Lover (and the reverse obviously), regardless of whether they can still be the psychic. That would allow collaboration without turning it into a PM game, and make it harder for a resolved psychic to direct people without outright claiming.

I'm sure there's a more wolf-friendly way to go about resolving the psychic and handle the whole paradox thing. Like, maybe a lynch that would cause a paradox kills a random (non-Death) Reaper instead and the wolves are then told who needs to die.

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Re: No Items, Fox Only, Final Destination

Postby Admetus » 18 Aug 2014, 11:14:53

I was actually thinking a way I would have adjusted things is just that a lynch or maul that wasn't correct simply wouldn't kill the person. Probably there is a more refined way of doing that, but when I was thinking about it, I was comparing that to "out of sequence = game over."

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Re: No Items, Fox Only, Final Destination

Postby sphenodont » 18 Aug 2014, 12:55:33

Damn it. DOM is right, I totally missed that Furin was ineligble for the maul yesterday.

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Re: No Items, Fox Only, Final Destination

Postby FurinMirado » 18 Aug 2014, 14:00:51

sphenodont wrote:Damn it. DOM is right, I totally missed that Furin was ineligble for the maul yesterday.

Yeah, I am more than a little upset about that, plus the hints you dropped in the wolf forum. But it's just a game.

I wish I could have focused more on the game. In retrospect I should have sent out PMs to the survivors on my list as soon as I resolved. Although I guess I stopped being the psychic when I was mauled? I should have sat this one out. It's too confusing when you only spend 15 minutes a day.

Thanks for running the game. I know how hard it is to keep everything straight.

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Re: No Items, Fox Only, Final Destination

Postby Admetus » 18 Aug 2014, 14:08:34

I love Snake's posts (the longer ones most). That is all.

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Re: No Items, Fox Only, Final Destination

Postby sphenodont » 18 Aug 2014, 17:48:51

FurinMirado wrote:
sphenodont wrote:Damn it. DOM is right, I totally missed that Furin was ineligble for the maul yesterday.

Yeah, I am more than a little upset about that, plus the hints you dropped in the wolf forum. But it's just a game.


I don't blame you, at all. In retrospect, I really should have passed again before trying to run a game, but it is what it is at this point. Sorry.

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Re: No Items, Fox Only, Final Destination

Postby sphenodont » 18 Aug 2014, 17:52:23

Since my screw-up cost the humans their resolved Psychic, should I give the Psychic role over to one of the remaining humans and let that player know what happened?

If they lynch Snake, Furin's predictions are still intact, otherwise.

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Re: No Items, Fox Only, Final Destination

Postby Hellheart » 18 Aug 2014, 21:44:40

Admetus wrote:I love Snake's posts (the longer ones most). That is all.

I voted to tie Snake instead of CAD on Day 3 because I liked CAD's posts far too much to kill him. That and it was easier to justify the Snake vote, but my thought process was mainly "I really don't want CAD to die."

I despise it when the only players that seem to be making truly sensible arguments against wolves are other fucking wolves. Ryvvn must be having serious time issues or something because I think he would have normally latched onto something at this point. This would be one of those games where if I made a strong wolf case and was ignored, I'd just stop caring at all because clearly the humans are going to lose horribly.

I think having the alternate win condition effectively removed from the game would hurt a lot less if it looked like the humans had any chance at all of winning the normal way.

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Re: No Items, Fox Only, Final Destination

Postby Hellheart » 18 Aug 2014, 22:08:44

sphenodont wrote:Since my screw-up cost the humans their resolved Psychic, should I give the Psychic role over to one of the remaining humans and let that player know what happened?

If they lynch Snake, Furin's predictions are still intact, otherwise.

Honestly, let the wolves win the game. You'll piss off far less people if you just let it go at this point.

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Re: No Items, Fox Only, Final Destination

Postby Snake » 18 Aug 2014, 23:39:21

Man, I got a 5 man vote train without a shred of evidence and they think it makes ICB look suspicious? The humans truly are lost.

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Re: No Items, Fox Only, Final Destination

Postby That PJ » 19 Aug 2014, 03:28:20

sphenodont wrote:
FurinMirado wrote:
sphenodont wrote:Damn it. DOM is right, I totally missed that Furin was ineligble for the maul yesterday.

Yeah, I am more than a little upset about that, plus the hints you dropped in the wolf forum. But it's just a game.


I don't blame you, at all. In retrospect, I really should have passed again before trying to run a game, but it is what it is at this point. Sorry.

I think it was a cool variant to try. Things were bound to go wrong the first time. Just learn from it.

But this game... yeah. Just let it play out at this point.
PJ's general resignation towards fate is good enough. -Okaros
Then he went and shot himself, saved me and got himself lynched because of it. You magnificent fool! -Mister E. Meat

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Re: No Items, Fox Only, Final Destination

Postby Snake » 19 Aug 2014, 03:37:16

Seer trainwreck aside, I did have fun in this game. Thanks for hosting.

I think it's a good idea in principle and must be complicated as hell to organise and run, so credit where it's due. A refined version would probably be a blast.

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Re: No Items, Fox Only, Final Destination

Postby FurinMirado » 19 Aug 2014, 03:53:09

Hellheart wrote:
sphenodont wrote:Since my screw-up cost the humans their resolved Psychic, should I give the Psychic role over to one of the remaining humans and let that player know what happened?

If they lynch Snake, Furin's predictions are still intact, otherwise.

Honestly, let the wolves win the game. You'll piss off far less people if you just let it go at this point.

++

I've run a few games and learned the hard way that once the game gets started it's better to let it govern itself. I'm already over it. It's just a game. As long as it's still fun for those playing it then everything is good.

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Re: No Items, Fox Only, Final Destination

Postby Admetus » 19 Aug 2014, 11:34:06

Subject: Day 6 - Winging It

DastardlyOldMan wrote:While I'm still suspicious of ICB, and have been for some time, Omega's been riding his coattails and being generally far too agreeable, and he's been completely under the radar from my perspective. I'll toss that out as an alternative.

Given that there's 12 of us, and we're not at a 6:6 parity, I'd guess that there are 5 of our Reapers - we haven't been able to crack that initial set.

I realize there's probably some bias in paying attention to this post, but DOM is really good at playing Human. Uncanny how often he's on the right track.


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