No Items, Fox Only, Final Destination

Maybe You Can Come Back in the Prequel?
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Re: No Items, Fox Only, Final Destination

Postby Hellheart » 19 Aug 2014, 11:36:33

Admetus wrote:Subject: Day 6 - Winging It

DastardlyOldMan wrote:While I'm still suspicious of ICB, and have been for some time, Omega's been riding his coattails and being generally far too agreeable, and he's been completely under the radar from my perspective. I'll toss that out as an alternative.

Given that there's 12 of us, and we're not at a 6:6 parity, I'd guess that there are 5 of our Reapers - we haven't been able to crack that initial set.

I realize there's probably some bias in paying attention to this post, but DOM is really good at playing Human. Uncanny how often he's on the right track.

This is also a big departure from the last time he was a wolf IIRC, with me in the Too Many Vigs game. in that game he didn't do much at all in the way of pushing with justification, and focused more on making early votes and defending humans.

Of course, it's probably clear to him that nobody's paying attention to arguments that make actual sense. They're more concerned with the path of least resistance, which never ends well.

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Re: No Items, Fox Only, Final Destination

Postby sphenodont » 19 Aug 2014, 18:38:30

Welcome to the dead, DOM and ICB. Sorry it didn't work out for you guys.

If only you'd been able to convince some of the others, DOM...

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Re: No Items, Fox Only, Final Destination

Postby Iron Clad Burrito » 19 Aug 2014, 18:45:58

I was totes snowed.

Oh well. The wolves are snowing everyone else, too, so I don't feel bad.

Thanks for the game.

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Re: No Items, Fox Only, Final Destination

Postby Hellheart » 19 Aug 2014, 21:55:43

Iron Clad Burrito wrote:I was totes snowed.

Oh well. The wolves are snowing everyone else, too, so I don't feel bad.

Thanks for the game.

Is that what you seriously think? Let me tell you exactly what happened up to the end of Day 4 this game:

Day 1 was the normal stuff. Random voting without justification, which is fine and a lot of it was towards Day 1 lynch predictions.

Day 2 was Day 1 all over again. It isn't always this way, but the vast majority of the time it is.

Day 3 was terrible. No coherent arguments were presented, and dferrantino lead the lynch vote. An early dferr lynch is like the laziest lynch ever, because he never does anything early to identify him as a wolf and he's never around to defend himself. This was the first day where nobody had to push for a prediction, and all we got was a bunch of meaningless votes.

Day 4 was even worse because it was a weekend so even the most talkative of us won't be doing much discussion and voting tends to be somewhat lazy and random. But I clearly pointed out that there were two likely seers from Day 1: me and Furin. And lo and behold, we ended up among the vote leaders. I suppose I should've made it really big and bolded so the wolves could read it too.

Now, I didn't experience Day 5 but it looked like there was some small nuggets of actual wisdom...and then a lot of lazy voting on the super-obvious target (Snake) and whoever rekard wanted to die (ICB). But at that point the humans are already so far behind that a win is next to impossible to pull off.

----

What really bothers me is that the players who don't contribute are the ones who are safe. I could've done meaningless RP the whole time and cast early votes and probably lived until the end of the game. The people who try to solve the game and find the wolves are the ones that are punished. The people who keep quiet and make stupid or random votes are safe.

It's basically a huge incentive for talkative players like me to put little or no effort into the game and just make simple votes until late. Sometimes that ends up working out, but I'm personally reaching the point where I pay so little attention to the game early on that I have no idea what's going on when Day 5 or 6 comes around.

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Re: No Items, Fox Only, Final Destination

Postby DastardlyOldMan » 20 Aug 2014, 11:01:03

Thanks for the game, spheno - I didn't take the rules too seriously to start with, so I wasn't overly worried if they weren't quite right (up until I started to look at the analysis a bit more).

Knowing that Furin was the psycho, though, now I'm :lol: at ya!

HH/ICB - partly, I'm definitely feeling the summer doldrums - I'm just not feeling invested in the games as much anymore. I hand-waved for three days and then got myself mauled, but even my Omega vote was more random flailing than anything else (fortunately, the living seem to be on their the-last-guy-that-died-was-right kick, and the random flailing lined up ~correctly). The quiet/active argument's been around forever, though. I agree with you, but some people don't have the time. PM games always exaggerate/exacerbate that condition, even limited PM games like this one, because the active people are quieter.

Sooo, why only 4 wolves? Seems odd, made it more frustrating for me, personally - the fewer they are, the longer it takes to find the first one, changes the distribution patterns, etc. Just curious.

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Re: No Items, Fox Only, Final Destination

Postby sphenodont » 20 Aug 2014, 11:45:32

There were only four wolves because the original plan was to allow vigs when the Psychic resolved, but I botched that and decided against introducing that wrinkle. In the movies, the coroner / Spokesperson for Death lets on that taking a life lets you claim that person's remaining life, so if you killed a Reaper, you'd live until the end, but if you killed someone else, you'd automatically die in their place.

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Re: No Items, Fox Only, Final Destination

Postby Hellheart » 20 Aug 2014, 12:12:21

DastardlyOldMan wrote:HH/ICB - partly, I'm definitely feeling the summer doldrums - I'm just not feeling invested in the games as much anymore. I hand-waved for three days and then got myself mauled, but even my Omega vote was more random flailing than anything else (fortunately, the living seem to be on their the-last-guy-that-died-was-right kick, and the random flailing lined up ~correctly). The quiet/active argument's been around forever, though. I agree with you, but some people don't have the time. PM games always exaggerate/exacerbate that condition, even limited PM games like this one, because the active people are quieter.

From a personal standpoint it's either extremely frustrating or I just stop caring. I hate having to choose between one of the two. I'm a man of extremes so I'm probably going to shift back to annoying pushy HH. At least then I can be invested without feeling like I'm hurting my survival chances since they're pretty damn low to begin with :lol:

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Re: No Items, Fox Only, Final Destination

Postby Iron Clad Burrito » 20 Aug 2014, 17:03:50

Hellheart wrote:
Iron Clad Burrito wrote:I was totes snowed.

Oh well. The wolves are snowing everyone else, too, so I don't feel bad.

Thanks for the game.

Is that what you seriously think?


Yes. You didn't exactly refute me.

I did make a huge mistake in deciding to play this game, but I've whined enough for one month. I'll probably try again in October.

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Re: No Items, Fox Only, Final Destination

Postby Hellheart » 20 Aug 2014, 17:46:48

Iron Clad Burrito wrote:
Hellheart wrote:
Iron Clad Burrito wrote:I was totes snowed.

Oh well. The wolves are snowing everyone else, too, so I don't feel bad.

Thanks for the game.

Is that what you seriously think?


Yes. You didn't exactly refute me.

No, I saw no reason to because you were right - the wolves snowed pretty much everyone. I feel like that's from the lack of effort on the humans' part rather than anything consciously done by the wolves.

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Re: No Items, Fox Only, Final Destination

Postby Admetus » 20 Aug 2014, 18:01:15

Spheno, your vote tally doesn't have CAD's change to stigmata.

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Re: No Items, Fox Only, Final Destination

Postby Admetus » 20 Aug 2014, 18:06:18

I show it as:

RaveBomb - 4 - stigmata, Omega, Okaros, Aldax
Omega - 3 - rekard, RaveBomb, Augenvonsauron
Okaros - 1 - Ryvvn
stigmata - 1 - Clearasday

Wolves win. Sadly, it doesn't matter that every human is on a wolf. They're on different wolves, the wolves win.

SIGH. I am disappointed.

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Re: No Items, Fox Only, Final Destination

Postby Admetus » 20 Aug 2014, 18:08:08

Oh, I suppose there might be some issue with the votes being late. I didn't notice that. But even if Aldax has no vote, it's a tie 3-3, death to tiebreak in favor of the wolves, and if Rekard's retract-retraction doesn't count, it's 3-2 in favor of RaveBomb.

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Re: No Items, Fox Only, Final Destination

Postby sphenodont » 20 Aug 2014, 18:16:37

Technically, the wolves didn't put in a tie-breaker until after EOD, so I could disregard it and determine it randomly. But I'm loathe to do that. Best to put this out of its misery, I think.

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Re: No Items, Fox Only, Final Destination

Postby DastardlyOldMan » 20 Aug 2014, 19:07:53

That's a tough call, there - the wolves very obviously revealed their hand, and since they were considering sniping for a good long while, they should've known to cast the tiebreaker much, much earlier in the day. Given that one of them pushed rekard out (and then bragged about doing it), I'd be 50/50 on this one. It was a risky gamble, but it's very, very clear who the wolves are at this point (theoretically, I think the humans could still f that up tomorrow!!). Play it by the book, and let random.org decide, maybe.

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Re: No Items, Fox Only, Final Destination

Postby sphenodont » 20 Aug 2014, 19:09:46

Random picked RaveBomb.

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Re: No Items, Fox Only, Final Destination

Postby Omega » 20 Aug 2014, 19:14:09

Thanks, sphen! Great game!

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Re: No Items, Fox Only, Final Destination

Postby Okaros » 20 Aug 2014, 19:29:10

First and foremost, apologies to the human team for the mistargeted maul on Furin. That was my fault. While spheno is volunteering to take the blame, it's ultimately on me for jumping to conclusions without clarifying what should have been, in hindsight, an questioninterpretation of the rules there.



Thank you for running the game, spheno. I'm a mixed bag of feelings about this one. It looks like you're already aware of the problems, so I'll stick to what I liked/suggestions for next instead:

-) The psychic prediction stuff was a cool concept and really fit the theme well. One idea that occured to me was that the whole concept/mechanic might work really well as a game without wolves. Let the PMs fully control the maul, keep the psychic resolution mechanic, etc... and never tell the players there aren't any actual wolf players.
-) Tying the deaths to the predicted roles, which were determined on the spot, was pretty fun. There we some fun opportunities to riff of things from that. :)
I kind of assume Okaros is out to backstab me until proven otherwise. - DOM

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Re: No Items, Fox Only, Final Destination

Postby Okaros » 20 Aug 2014, 19:29:29

DastardlyOldMan wrote:That's a tough call, there - the wolves very obviously revealed their hand, and since they were considering sniping for a good long while, they should've known to cast the tiebreaker much, much earlier in the day. Given that one of them pushed rekard out (and then bragged about doing it), I'd be 50/50 on this one. It was a risky gamble, but it's very, very clear who the wolves are at this point (theoretically, I think the humans could still f that up tomorrow!!). Play it by the book, and let random.org decide, maybe.


I just wanted to say my intent wasn't to brag there. As I pointed out in the same breath I thought I'd bumped Aldax too, which apparently almost cost us the game.
I kind of assume Okaros is out to backstab me until proven otherwise. - DOM

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Re: No Items, Fox Only, Final Destination

Postby rekard » 20 Aug 2014, 19:41:48

Ah well. I think the psychic mechanic muddued the game too much that I couldn't trust analysis of day 1. That and the low participation and the missing votes along not having that much of a time. Sunday I had spent time with friends and was late for the last hours of the last days. Like today. I had a 3 hour cooking class directly after work and just came in at the last minute. At least I had forgotten to retract my vote on Omega, so technically my vote on Ryvvn was not valid haha.

Heh, I had Okaros pegged correctly. You're becoming too obvious. It was so funny that you break out the RP the moment you get acvused. You fell nicely for the PM bait. It was a gamble though.

Althoigh with the missing votes and low discussion is tough to get things out. I didn't like ICB giving up like that :/. Wolves use that attitude vatious times and when he PM ed me , I was like ahum. To be honest I wasn't really sure in the game and there were not really counterpoints throughout the game. Also Hellheart, there were pkayers who had their first vision on day 2, not only day 1. I didn't want to divulge in case someone else was still psychic eligible.

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Re: No Items, Fox Only, Final Destination

Postby Admetus » 20 Aug 2014, 19:48:52

Yeah, I would have been a Day 2 person. Didn't matter, though, since I invalidated on Day 1 when one of my later predictions died too early.

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Re: No Items, Fox Only, Final Destination

Postby Okaros » 20 Aug 2014, 19:55:08

rekard wrote:Heh, I had Okaros pegged correctly. You're becoming too obvious. It was so funny that you break out the RP the moment you get acvused. You fell nicely for the PM bait. It was a gamble though.


Yeah, I reverted to some bad behaviors at various points this game. Not having time during the work day to mull things over led to some really sloppy play on my part. I do think that bait would have "caught" me regardless of my humanity though. With nobody active/participating I would have been just as desperate for someone to bounce ideas off of as a human as I was as a wolf. :lol:
I kind of assume Okaros is out to backstab me until proven otherwise. - DOM

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Re: No Items, Fox Only, Final Destination

Postby Okaros » 20 Aug 2014, 20:00:52

Also, because Ryvvn expressed such doubts about my predictions, here's what they initially were. Instead of asking me to revise them after cancelling some of the roles, Spheno just rewrote them all to "Okaros" instead and told me I was a Reaper. :P

Contract Assassin - I always knew there was something shady about Aldax. Clearly he's going on this vacation to lay low and avoid the attention his latest job stirred up!
Recently-Detached Siamese Twin - It'd be too obvious if there were more on this in a bit. Besides, the surgical scars on Blindsniper83's left side are a dead giveaway.
Recovering Alcoholic - After our last quantum qonflict, 7-zark-7 put down the bottle and has been sober ever since. Hopefully this trip is nice and relaxing so he doesn't fall off the wagon!
Retired High School Earth Sciences Teacher - Look at all those -inator gadgets he's tinkering with! They've clearly been made by highschool students, probably as some sort of mid-term project, so Hellheart is obviously the former teacher looking for a relaxing time during Summer Break.
SuperPAC Treasurer - Everybody loves ThatPJ, even when he's carrying all of the money you donated to your favorite political candidate's election campaign.
Best Friend - RaveBomb, I used to wonder what friendship could be until you shared all its magic with me. But since you're (probably) not playing, my #2 BFF is clearly Ryvvn,
Love Interest - From the first day we met at ISIS Headquarters, my tawdry love-affair with ChargerClearasday has been the stuff of legends!
I kind of assume Okaros is out to backstab me until proven otherwise. - DOM

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Re: No Items, Fox Only, Final Destination

Postby Hellheart » 20 Aug 2014, 20:43:43

rekard wrote:Also Hellheart, there were pkayers who had their first vision on day 2, not only day 1. I didn't want to divulge in case someone else was still psychic eligible.

Yeah, I knew this too. I also figured you might be working with a potential psychic and setting up a 2-day push to get ICB or me. I was only scratching the surface in case the wolves didn't have anyone that had the time to dissect the game. We actually had a win chance on Day 4 if I had the opportunity to vote-snipe Snake to 4 votes, but Zark's switch just destroyed that option.

I outright didn't have the time to start any discussion on Day 3, but that would have been much more ideal since that was a weekday. I was surprised to get back in time to vote at all. We usually lose at least one analytic player by Day 3 so early discussion can be way more beneficial than later discussion.

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Re: No Items, Fox Only, Final Destination

Postby Ryvvn » 20 Aug 2014, 22:41:05

Hellheart wrote:Ryvvn must be having serious time issues or something because I think he would have normally latched onto something at this point.

This, combined with the complexities of this game, meant it took me a while to find something to latch on to when doing my own analysis, which is when I started looking at who voted for who early and would they have actually predicted that person for an early death(?)

In that regard, Okaros, sorry if my in-game post deriding your predictions came off dickish; other humans rarely follow me on to wolves even when I have such a strong gut feeling about them -- you may stand behind the action of it, but your PM is what really caught my read -- so I needed to try and present an argument for why others should vote for you, that was the best I could come up with in the time I had to participate. I hope this doesn't revoke my #2 BFF status 8-)

ICB, I never felt entirely sure you were a wolf, but rekard is right about your tone and sense of "giving up" being something that feels like wolf you; I wish you had changed your tone a little bit on your death day.

rekard, sorry I wasn't around at that time of your PM looking to try to figure some things out together, I felt confident you were not a wolf this game and were the only player I had any sense of trust in.


Finally, Hellheart, I totally agree with you that the vocal seem to be pushed to the pyre while the inactives get mostly overlooked, this has proven consistent behavior and it is unfortunate. I hate the idea that it'd be "punishing" inactive players, but I'd prefer they get pushed early when votes are totally random (I'm going to start doing this with at least my day 1 votes), and I think WoG rules need to be a bit stricter to dissuade players from joining if they're just not going to have the time. I realize that might mean less players per game, but it's better than starting and having the active players forced to deal with taking other's inactivity into account.

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Re: No Items, Fox Only, Final Destination

Postby Iron Clad Burrito » 21 Aug 2014, 17:09:18

Shrug. If I only used my wolf behaviors as a wolf, you'd always know when I was a wolf. And I will not have that.

I was whiny for 3 particular reasons. One is above. Another is stated in the thread on the day I was lynched. The third is IRL, and I won't whine about that anymore. :)

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Re: No Items, Fox Only, Final Destination

Postby jokerfish » 21 Aug 2014, 17:28:12

Thanks for running this game, sphen. Sorry again for being MIA so much of the time--I'm sure that didn't help with the balance issues.
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Re: No Items, Fox Only, Final Destination

Postby Ryvvn » 21 Aug 2014, 19:22:36

Iron Clad Burrito wrote:Shrug. If I only used my wolf behaviors as a wolf, you'd always know when I was a wolf. And I will not have that.

Believe me, I totally understand this. As I said, I was never really sure you were a wolf, I just had nothing better to go on at the time.

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Re: No Items, Fox Only, Final Destination

Postby Hellheart » 21 Aug 2014, 23:12:17

Ryvvn wrote:
Iron Clad Burrito wrote:Shrug. If I only used my wolf behaviors as a wolf, you'd always know when I was a wolf. And I will not have that.

Believe me, I totally understand this. As I said, I was never really sure you were a wolf, I just had nothing better to go on at the time.

Surface tells are virtually never reliable with experienced players here. ICB in particular likes to feign various strong emotions or states of mind as a human, making it really hard to tell when he's actually angry/flustered/whatever.

That's not to say that experienced players don't have wolf tells that are at least more reliable than a coinflip. Rekard keyed in on what once was a pretty reliable ICB wolf tell. But those tells are not easy to pick up on in the first place and are very hard to track from game to game. And any player always has the option of hurting their human game to help their wolf game. I'd be careful trusting gut feelings that are based simply on the tone of posts or a player's general demeanor if they've played for a long time.

That said, surface tells are a great starting point to put pressure on a player that hasn't been talking much at all. It's really easy to stay under the radar as a wolf if you haven't gotten any real pressure.


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