The autopsy begins.

You are barely recognizable.
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Admetus
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Re: The autopsy begins.

Postby Admetus » 19 Dec 2014, 21:19:01

Yep seems to work.

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Re: The autopsy begins.

Postby Iron Clad Burrito » 19 Dec 2014, 21:45:32

rekard wrote:Either I'm doing things wrong or right when both factions think the game has been unfair to them.


We lynched two humans (sphen and Rave), and 6 wolves and ended up at Lynch-and-lose for 2 days, only winning with an insane double-wolf-kill on the penultimate day.

There were 7 wolves; we knew one (50/50) at the game's start. This was out of 22 players; one out of three is HEAVILY wolf-slanted. Sorry, there's no other explanation. Humans got lucky by killing the maul-room-changer on Day 1. If Hellheart lived past day 3 there is no way humans win.

Shrug. IDK what you expect; it was very heavily favoring the wolves from the get-go.

And I want to know at what point it all clicked for CAD.

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Re: The autopsy begins.

Postby DastardlyOldMan » 19 Dec 2014, 21:52:08

Ryvvn wrote:PJ, I think my biggest complaint regarding your two roles wasn't that they were independent but that rekard's wording to Admetus' seering of you implied that Helsing (not just PJ the player) explicitly controlled Cicero, and so all Lucifer related decisions made that day were done so with that in mind, that we'd at least take out a confirmed human in Cicero and also Helsing along with my lynch.

Ambiguity of powers, unless understood to be secret, harms the game in my opinion.

(note: I'm not still complaining about this game, just wanted to clarify for PJ)

Yeah, that one bit us, but lots of things bit us.

I think my biggest beef overall was that, with HH gone on Day 1 (before I, you know, was actually playing :D ), it came down to math, and from what I can tell, there wasn't a path that led to the wolves getting it right. The Hyde/Jekyll thing was an obvious weakness, and then having the humans able to calculate the wolves - well, they had more info than we did (really? The ROBOT had it's own consciousness??)

Yes, the humans had some really good luck and hit some good targets - but they also had the whole mathematical-problem-solve on their side. Any time that the wolves can be derived, it's a fight against the clock. In the end, I think the game balance was too ~hinged on key roles. Had we mauled PJ/Cicero a moment earlier, different game. Had HH not ~randomly died on Day 1, different game. Had there not been 15 votes missed in the first few days (15!!!), different game. But that's hard to compensate for as a GM - I had the same issue in Pirates/Ninjas #2 - just a shit ton of missed votes, and there's nothing you can really do as a GM about it.

WoG'ing Aldax probably hurt more than it helped - it pushed me from 3:2 unconfirmed:confirmed to 2:2 (not that I really had a shot - the math had me dead to rights), but I don't know that it was a ~punishment.

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Re: The autopsy begins.

Postby DastardlyOldMan » 19 Dec 2014, 22:01:14

Iron Clad Burrito wrote:
rekard wrote:Either I'm doing things wrong or right when both factions think the game has been unfair to them.


We lynched two humans (sphen and Rave), and 6 wolves and ended up at Lynch-and-lose for 2 days, only winning with an insane double-wolf-kill on the penultimate day.

There were 7 wolves; we knew one (50/50) at the game's start. This was out of 22 players; one out of three is HEAVILY wolf-slanted. Sorry, there's no other explanation. Humans got lucky by killing the maul-room-changer on Day 1. If Hellheart lived past day 3 there is no way humans win.

Shrug. IDK what you expect; it was very heavily favoring the wolves from the get-go.

And I want to know at what point it all clicked for CAD.

Yeah, but how many of those votes were actually randomly decided, or decided by TWG-like decisions? I mean, several of the lynches were mathematical certainties. HUGE bias. The seer was TWO people again (that's never, ever, ever a good idea - do you want me to repeat my Terminator rant again?) There were possibly 20% more wolves than there should have been, but the humans ability to find them was increased by 2-300%. That didn't balance out - again, because of the key-roles aspect. But agreed - had HH lived longer, the game would've been horribly imbalanced in the other direction.

It's one thing to say that the humans got lucky and lynched 4 wolves in 6 days. It's another to say that the rules set it up such that 4 wolves were able to be lynched in 6 days - especially since our vote records were a goddam thing of glory (no seriously, go look at them) - unfortunately, the vote records got overshadowed by the math.

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Re: The autopsy begins.

Postby Iron Clad Burrito » 19 Dec 2014, 22:42:34

DastardlyOldMan wrote:
Iron Clad Burrito wrote:
rekard wrote:Either I'm doing things wrong or right when both factions think the game has been unfair to them.


We lynched two humans (sphen and Rave), and 6 wolves and ended up at Lynch-and-lose for 2 days, only winning with an insane double-wolf-kill on the penultimate day.

There were 7 wolves; we knew one (50/50) at the game's start. This was out of 22 players; one out of three is HEAVILY wolf-slanted. Sorry, there's no other explanation. Humans got lucky by killing the maul-room-changer on Day 1. If Hellheart lived past day 3 there is no way humans win.

Shrug. IDK what you expect; it was very heavily favoring the wolves from the get-go.

And I want to know at what point it all clicked for CAD.

Yeah, but how many of those votes were actually randomly decided, or decided by TWG-like decisions? I mean, several of the lynches were mathematical certainties. HUGE bias. The seer was TWO people again (that's never, ever, ever a good idea - do you want me to repeat my Terminator rant again?) There were possibly 20% more wolves than there should have been, but the humans ability to find them was increased by 2-300%. That didn't balance out - again, because of the key-roles aspect. But agreed - had HH lived longer, the game would've been horribly imbalanced in the other direction.

It's one thing to say that the humans got lucky and lynched 4 wolves in 6 days. It's another to say that the rules set it up such that 4 wolves were able to be lynched in 6 days - especially since our vote records were a goddam thing of glory (no seriously, go look at them) - unfortunately, the vote records got overshadowed by the math.


The seer got one vision, by rule. That's not a Seer. that's a one-shot power.
A GA who was only able to protect himself - that's an unlucky strike by the wolves.
Any D1 wolf lynch is luck or a wolf posting in the wrong board. the D3 lynch of Rictus was still 50/50. Hell, I don't even take credit for it, it was as random as could be. the lynch of Ryvvn finally? Luck of a one-shot power. The only time we were SURE of ourselves, we lynched Ravebomb. The penultimate day was a "mathematical certainty" that very nearly cost us the game.

So no, I don't buy it.

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Re: The autopsy begins.

Postby rekard » 19 Dec 2014, 23:11:04

I knew the math thing was critical hence the roles and assigned powers to assist. In this setting, I knew the humans would be able to deduce the wolves which is why the humans didn't really need many chances of failure. I put the powers to compensate various things and well some things didn't go as expected. The seer would compensate a couple things like Junko. I envisioned things a bit more challenging but the wolf dying on day 1 threw things off.

Honestly, the game was sort of slanted for humans to kill wolves faster than in a standard game, which is what the mechanics bring. The certainty of knowing from the get go 1-2 of these 6 is a wolf is a significant advantage. That's way more than it's revealed in a standard game. Not counting that humans knew the wolf powers. So with more information, players have less space for failure.

It also influences that wolves weren't free to maul who they pleased. The room limitation also increased the chances of a wolf hitting the maul resistant guy. Instead of a 1/16 chance to hit the guy, it was a 1/4 chance most of the time.

I think the balance I had brought in was too delicate and could be slanted easily. With Junko in play, the seer power isn't that bad since it helps deductions, but well, stuff happens. The Jekyll/Hyde thing missed a couple spots. San getting moved to the gift shop by random and Wasabi getting hit by the laser were unlucky for the wolves.

And about the seer, I think it's credit of PJ nailing the wolves since his first target was going to be Admetus and then changed to Ryvvn.

I tried my best to avoid the math logic, and I think I almost got it. At least there was no big situation of "elimination lynches" where people would say : Eliminate folks until we hit the wolf.

Probably I should have been more explicit about expectations of this game.

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Re: The autopsy begins.

Postby Admetus » 19 Dec 2014, 23:16:12

ICB wrote:The penultimate day was a "mathematical certainty" that very nearly cost us the game.

Nah, the only way Day 7 should have ended in almost every case was one wolf and one human dead, narrowing the field, and guaranteeing DOM's death the next day. I was not enough of a wolf to pull it off, though, so you got a freebee wolf thrown in, which made it a total collapse. We knew we were almost out of it from a few days back. I know it looked grim as heck to the humans, but we could see all the charts, and the space left to be a wolf was really really thin.

There was amazingly bad luck in a few places. But whatever, I had fun. I got to scheme and plot and even ham it up a bit.

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Re: The autopsy begins.

Postby Admetus » 19 Dec 2014, 23:20:43

rekard wrote:And about the seer, I think it's credit of PJ nailing the wolves since his first target was going to be Admetus and then changed to Ryvvn.

When you're right, you're right. But 80% of the time when you think I'm suspicious and seer me, I'm going to be a human. It's because I'm suspicious in 100% of the games!

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Re: The autopsy begins.

Postby San » 20 Dec 2014, 02:30:20

Thank you rekard for the game and everyone else for playing.

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Re: The autopsy begins.

Postby Clearasday » 20 Dec 2014, 03:11:18

Thanks rekard for another great game. Good job team Not-bloodthirsty-monsters.
THERE IS NO JUSTICE, THERE IS JUST CLEARASDAY.

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Re: The autopsy begins.

Postby That PJ » 20 Dec 2014, 07:03:12

Clearasday wrote:Thanks rekard for another great game. Good job team Not-bloodthirsty-monsters.

You made playing Cicero pretty fun, so thanks for that, CAD.

I don't know how to feel about the game as a whole. It was a wild ride, so definitely fun. Balance-wise I tend to agree with ICB, but then again, I was playing a human. It just seemed like we really did have to play damn near perfect to have a shot at winning, and even then we just scraped by. But I don't have a good head for balancing these things, which I readily admit, and in the end... look where we are.

I think the only time I went "Oh come on!" was when the double maul was announced. That was just mean, man. :)

And yeah Cicero gets his own consciousness! He had "I Robot" in his bloody password! :D Though if it makes you feel better:
1. If either died, no one-time seer power
2. Helsing couldn't claim seer, just Cicero
3. Once Helsing died, Cicero forgot everything about the seer vision

So I had a one-shot power with three points of failure. I expected just having the masked account to be far more useful than the one-time seer.

And I almost botched the whole thing on day 1 by missing my vote, making it trivial to deduce who was behind the masked account.
PJ's general resignation towards fate is good enough. -Okaros
Then he went and shot himself, saved me and got himself lynched because of it. You magnificent fool! -Mister E. Meat

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Re: The autopsy begins.

Postby Iron Clad Burrito » 20 Dec 2014, 07:11:07

Admetus wrote:
ICB wrote:The penultimate day was a "mathematical certainty" that very nearly cost us the game.

Nah, the only way Day 7 should have ended in almost every case was one wolf and one human dead, narrowing the field, and guaranteeing DOM's death the next day. I was not enough of a wolf to pull it off, though, so you got a freebee wolf thrown in, which made it a total collapse. We knew we were almost out of it from a few days back. I know it looked grim as heck to the humans, but we could see all the charts, and the space left to be a wolf was really really thin.

There was amazingly bad luck in a few places. But whatever, I had fun. I got to scheme and plot and even ham it up a bit.


And you did a great job hamming it up. :)

Thanks for the game, rekard, and gg everyone.

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Re: The autopsy begins.

Postby Omega » 21 Dec 2014, 11:12:30

Just added myself to the dead thread. Look forward to reading this one.


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