Finale: Glorious Cheese

The wizard's natural habitat.
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DastardlyOldMan
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Finale: Glorious Cheese

Postby DastardlyOldMan » 23 Aug 2013, 18:15:02

Granny Weatherwax shook her head in disgust. Arrogant fools, those wizards, thinking they were required to help the Disc get along. The Disc was older than any of them by far, and it certainly didn't need them conniving and blundering around. Look where it got them this time.

She tugged at another bit of rosemary in her herb garden, trying to save it from the mess. It would take some time to sort this out, that's for sure. Probably best to get Nanny Ogg along as well. Cheese, indeed. Idiots.
--
The dwarves were the first to come complaining. Digging through walls of cheese to get at precious bits of jalapeno didn't have quite the same trade benefits as veins of silver studded with emeralds. The trolls would come later, once they figured out what had happened. When your basic makeup consists of silicate fibers, getting a couple of elements mixed up was a bit concerning. Fortunately, trolls didn't know what 'silicate', 'fibers', or even 'basic' were. The farming settlements had checked in as well, of course - not only was it rough trying to get wheat to grow in Swiss, people were starting to demand hazard pay for milking cattle.

Eventually, it all settled down - this was the Disc, after all, and people adapted to the task at hand. The dwarves took on fieldhand work churning gems and ore, dairy farmers took to the hills and started extensive Provolone-mining operations, and the trolls discovered that there's little practical difference between 500 pounds of cheese and 500 pounds of rock when you're doling out love taps. According to the Almanack of Random Baloney, obesity among earthworms went up 47%. CMOT Dibbler made a killing once it was discovered that his sausage-in-a-bun acted as an incredible laxative (if you could get past the emetic aspects).
--
Back at UU, the Librarian, who did, as it were, have a vested interest, returned from L-Space with a number of helpful texts on cultivating banana bushes. While it was common knowledge in the more tropical areas of the Disc that bananas grew on trees, it was also common knowledge that the earth was made of dirt. No one argued with the Librarian on the topic.

Mrs. Whitlow was allowed back in the kitchens, mostly because wizards were more inclined to food that you could actually eat. She received a 20% pay increase, but rumors among the serving staff suggested that she was secretly plotting her revenge - just as soon as she could find a reliable source of brussel sprouts.

While Stibbons worked with Visigoth and Rivy-Ryvi-Ravi-well-you-know-who-I-mean to try to reverse things, Ridcully eventually cut them off. "Nothing to fix lads, nothing to fix. Give it a few years, and people won't even remember it being any other way." Eventually, a new crop of students came to the University, the old students became professors through a complete lack of academic pursuit, and life continued on, a bit creamier.
--
Anvilfang - lynched, Day 15 - Corrupted Wizard (Flame/Dark Flame)

Humanitarian Win!
--


Two days later, in the Ramtop mountains:

Nanny Ogg glared at the skinny little man, the "Wizzard" who's only magical power seemed to be the ability to get himself out of trouble - and into deeper trouble. "Greebo's just a cuddly widdle kitten, now he don't mean no harm."

Rincewind thought otherwise, unable to control a high-pitched keen as the demon-in-cat-form played with his leg, particularly the stringy parts that seemed to connect the one bit to the other. Then, his face lit up with a subtle smile; he had heard that rhythmic pattern of a hundred tiny legs bearing down that generaly signalled his continuing survival.

The Luggage bore down on his owner's attacker, lid jittering up and down as it bounced across the uneven ground. Greebo released his hold on the wizard's tendons (too stringy, anyhow) and turned to face this new point-of-interest. Curiosity might kill the cat, but Greebo had found an elegant solution to that problem: he killed it first.

The two circled one another, Rincewind stuck in the middle like an exclamation point gouged into the middle of a sentence with words like "Danger", "Teeth", and "Oh-God-No-Not-That". Nanny stood outside the circle and lit up a smoke. She reached under her skirt and extracted a tub of popcorn from. . . well, somewhere. This was going to be interesting.

The circle grew tighter and tighter, Rincewind turning in a circle to try to keep the Disc's two most dangerous creatures in sight at the same time. Suddenly, both stopped - and Rincewind's survival instincts suddenly found a way out; one moment, he was in the middle of the circle, the next, all but his boots were ensconced behind Nanny Ogg. A threadbare arm reached out and plucked up a piece of popcorn.

Greebo crouched, and casually gave out something between a purr and a death threat. The Luggage juggled it's feet back and forth like a drunken samba dancer at a Judas Priest concert. Then, ever so slowly, the two inched closer and closer together. . .


Nanny's cigarette hit the ground. Rincewind allowed his fingers to ease off from his eyelids just enough to see - no. No, it couldn’t be.

The Luggage *nuzzled* the devil-incarnate feline once again, shuffled his feet, and settled down. Greebo gave off a hearty purr, and *licked* the sapient pearlwood box of doom before giving a little hop and curling up on the lid of the Luggage. Moments later, a faint snoring joined the contented purrs coming from the center of the clearing.

"Ha! Greebo's got himself a friend, now. Isn't that sweet?"

Rincewind gave a little jump as Nanny's hand dipped behind her and gave a little squeeze.

"Have you ever had Scrumble, Mr. Wizzard? It's made from apples. Mostly."

--Fin

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Re: Finale: Glorious Cheese

Postby DastardlyOldMan » 23 Aug 2013, 18:16:36

Everyone's dead until such time as the admins can do their normal permissiony thing.

Thanks very much everyone for playing. I won't pretend that I had any idea what was going on for most of this game, but I hope it was a fun ride!

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Re: Finale: Glorious Cheese

Postby Ryvvn » 23 Aug 2013, 18:23:00

*applause*
:lol:

[OOC: this was the best wolf game I've ever played--online or off--though that hasn't been many, yet; I'll expect, with this being my first game here, future GMs will be hard pressed to give me such a satisfying experience... challenge extended!]

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Re: Finale: Glorious Cheese

Postby Ryvvn » 23 Aug 2013, 18:25:42

DastardlyOldMan wrote:While Stibbons worked with Visigoth and Rivy-Ryvi-Ravi-well-you-know-who-I-mean to try to reverse things, Ridcully eventually cut them off. "Nothing to fix lads, nothing to fix. Give it a few years, and people won't even remember it being any other way."


I know who I'm voting first next game!

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Re: Finale: Glorious Cheese

Postby Hellheart » 23 Aug 2013, 18:35:10

rekard wrote:Hellheart didn't get from the OP you said there was one wolf left hah.


rekard wrote:I think that if there had been a conversion, DOM would have announced it in some way. Letting the imagination fly with a lot of speculation is likely to lead to the wrong decisions hehe.

Great game DOM.

Wait, we're supposed to actually believe what the GM is saying in the flavor text?

I looked over a few of the previous games, and that just didn't seem like a good idea to me ;p

not to mention I apparently have a hard time seeing anything from the gm

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Re: Finale: Glorious Cheese

Postby Ozymandias » 23 Aug 2013, 18:42:01

Ryvvn wrote:*applause*
:lol:

[OOC: this was the best wolf game I've ever played--online or off--though that hasn't been many, yet; I'll expect, with this being my first game here, future GMs will be hard pressed to give me such a satisfying experience... challenge extended!]

Ryvvn, having just the read the last 10 days of the game today, I have to say that you played a fantastic game, continuing what is a surprisingly not uncommon TWG pattern of impressive debuts on this board (Okaros and Admetus are two other recent examples that come to mind).

The funny thing is, because of my utter misunderstanding of the rules, I was absolutely convinced that you were getting mauled on Night 4, and that it would my fault for lying about being targeted by water (hence my concocting the dferrantino suicide plan).

So imagine my surprise to see you still in the game on Day 15!

Anyway, really glad I didn't get you mauled after all!

Great job!

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Re: Finale: Glorious Cheese

Postby Ryvvn » 23 Aug 2013, 18:50:51

Ozymandias wrote:
Ryvvn wrote:*applause*
:lol:

[OOC: this was the best wolf game I've ever played--online or off--though that hasn't been many, yet; I'll expect, with this being my first game here, future GMs will be hard pressed to give me such a satisfying experience... challenge extended!]

Ryvvn, having just the read the last 10 days of the game today, I have to say that you played a fantastic game, continuing what is a surprisingly not uncommon TWG pattern of impressive debuts on this board (Okaros and Admetus are two other recent examples that come to mind).

The funny thing is, because of my utter misunderstanding of the rules, I was absolutely convinced that you were getting mauled on Night 4, and that it would my fault for lying about being targeted by water (hence my concocting the dferrantino suicide plan).

So imagine my surprise to see you still in the game on Day 15!

Anyway, really glad I didn't get you mauled after all!

Great job!


I also fully expected to get mauled every damn night since outing myself; perhaps players took it easy on me because I'm new, or kept seeing PMs as less of a threat (or corrupted PMs as a benefit) as the game went on, either way I'm glad that I can slightly prove that revealing information isn't always a death sentence!

From the Dead Thread:
Ryvvn wrote:
Hellheart wrote:
Admetus wrote:Hilariously wrong, but still right enough to win it for the humans. Congrats Ryvvn. ;)

It had enough of the reasoning I suspected (hey wait, my power wasn't a vig, what the hell!) for it to pull through. Well done Ryvvn :D

:lol: Yeah grossly over-theorized but hey, found the winning clue I was looking for; really funny reading through the Night J Hex thread, since that plan is what led me to making the correct choice! And, if the answer was so obvious, I'll chalk up my failure to see it as the pressure of being the one to make that final choice.

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Re: Finale: Glorious Cheese

Postby Hellheart » 23 Aug 2013, 18:52:32

Ozymandias wrote:Ryvvn, having just the read the last 10 days of the game today, I have to say that you played a fantastic game, continuing what is a surprisingly not uncommon TWG pattern of impressive debuts on this board (Okaros and Admetus are two other recent examples that come to mind).

Given my...odd flights of fancy and random tangents at times (partially the result of limiting my time, mostly the result of my having NO IDEA WHAT I WAS DOING), Ryvvn basically saved us 2 or 3 times in the past 5 or 6 days by putting things into clean tables and encouraging people to contribute.

I'll get better, and I'm prone to indulging flights of fancy so I may very well shelve my analytical side for the next game. But between no one listening to me on the day Ozy got lynched and rekard pointing out that I had like the worst human vote record ever, I was going to do something right if it killed me.

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Re: Finale: Glorious Cheese

Postby Iron Clad Burrito » 23 Aug 2013, 18:53:23

I think this should work for permissions... if a non-overlord would oblige me and try to post?

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Re: Finale: Glorious Cheese

Postby Ozymandias » 23 Aug 2013, 18:54:04

Hellheart wrote:I'm going to be really disappointed if we lose. I worked really hard on that plan and damnit, I was proud of it.

You should be-- it was a good plan, that definitely helped the Humans win the final lynch vote. Well done!

Though it would have been interesting to see what would have happened if Anvilfang had targeted Ryvvn instead of mauled.

DOM, would Ryvvn would have wound up with some kind of vig power that then backfired on him?

I wonder if Ryvvn would have shot Hellheart or Anvilfang ... ?
Last edited by Ozymandias on 23 Aug 2013, 19:26:23, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Finale: Glorious Cheese

Postby DastardlyOldMan » 23 Aug 2013, 18:56:48

Ozymandias wrote:
Hellheart wrote:I'm going to be really disappointed if we lose. I worked really hard on that plan and damnit, I was proud of it.

You should be-- it was a good plan, that definitely helped the Humans win the final lynch vote. Well done!

Though it would have been interesting to see what would have happened if Anvilfang had targeted Ryyvn instead of mauled.

DOM, would Ryyvn would have wound up with some kind of vig power that then backfired on him?

I wonder if Ryyvn would have shot Hellheart or Anvilfang ... ?

The final night? No, there weren't enough words going around to generate much in the way of powers (most of the end-game powers were a bit worthless, to be honest). More reason for some kind of perk for being the final word of an element, I think.

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Re: Finale: Glorious Cheese

Postby Ozymandias » 23 Aug 2013, 19:00:57

DastardlyOldMan wrote:
Ozymandias wrote:
Hellheart wrote:I'm going to be really disappointed if we lose. I worked really hard on that plan and damnit, I was proud of it.

You should be-- it was a good plan, that definitely helped the Humans win the final lynch vote. Well done!

Though it would have been interesting to see what would have happened if Anvilfang had targeted Ryyvn instead of mauled.

DOM, would Ryyvn would have wound up with some kind of vig power that then backfired on him?

I wonder if Ryyvn would have shot Hellheart or Anvilfang ... ?

The final night? No, there weren't enough words going around to generate much in the way of powers (most of the end-game powers were a bit worthless, to be honest). More reason for some kind of perk for being the final word of an element, I think.

Oh right, Ryvvn got targeted by Fire and Air on Night 13, not Night 14. I got those nights mixed up.

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Re: Finale: Glorious Cheese

Postby Ozymandias » 23 Aug 2013, 19:20:32

Hellheart wrote:
Ozymandias wrote:Ryvvn, having just the read the last 10 days of the game today, I have to say that you played a fantastic game, continuing what is a surprisingly not uncommon TWG pattern of impressive debuts on this board (Okaros and Admetus are two other recent examples that come to mind).

Given my...odd flights of fancy and random tangents at times (partially the result of limiting my time, mostly the result of my having NO IDEA WHAT I WAS DOING), Ryvvn basically saved us 2 or 3 times in the past 5 or 6 days by putting things into clean tables and encouraging people to contribute.

I'll get better, and I'm prone to indulging flights of fancy so I may very well shelve my analytical side for the next game. But between no one listening to me on the day Ozy got lynched and rekard pointing out that I had like the worst human vote record ever, I was going to do something right if it killed me.

Don't be too hard on yourself, Hellheart.

Your play style is actually a really good one for vanilla games.

And after you play a couple more games it won't be too hard for you to modify it for Everyone's Special variants.

Because in a skin like this with so many secret lynch-altering powers flying around, the typical human approach of assessing the "wolfiness" of player votes (either via analysis or gut feel) often won't work, because it can be so hard to figure out if the Wolves knew that the vote would be altered.

I mean, if you look at the lynch votes, I would say that more than half were either tainted by vote manipulation powers or were runaway bandwagons.

That's why games like this usually devolve into role reveals in the endgame.

And that was something the Humans in this endgame-- particularly you and Ryvvn-- managed really well.
Last edited by Ozymandias on 23 Aug 2013, 19:25:36, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Finale: Glorious Cheese

Postby Ionitor » 23 Aug 2013, 19:24:55

Was double fire actually a guaranteed vig? I hadn't gathered that, but I paid poor attention to power info, especially when I died.

Thanks for the great game, DOM!

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Re: Finale: Glorious Cheese

Postby Okaros » 23 Aug 2013, 19:26:25

DOM - Thanks for letting me watch from the sidelines on this one, it was a blast. The flavor text was great and the back-and-forth between both teams was some great entertainment. :D
I kind of assume Okaros is out to backstab me until proven otherwise. - DOM

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Re: Finale: Glorious Cheese

Postby Hellheart » 23 Aug 2013, 19:33:50

Ionitor wrote:Was double fire actually a guaranteed vig? I hadn't gathered that, but I paid poor attention to power info, especially when I died.

Thanks for the great game, DOM!

I was under the impression from the rules that it was a fire-based power. I was going off of SS saying that it was Air-Air-Fire that gave him a Vig (which in retrospect makes little sense but hey, fire = vig right?)

The really funny thing, IMO, is that I was trying really hard to get Ryvvn to say whether he had a vig in case there were two wolves and Ryvvn was one of them (if he had a vig, I might have asked what he thought about using the vig on AVS just to see what he said). I couldn't do anything with that info, but on the final day perhaps it would have done something. That info could honestly have saved the game in retrospect.

And yes, excellent game DOM, especially the flavor text that I'm sure I'll get around to reading sooner or later :lol:

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Re: Finale: Glorious Cheese

Postby stigmata » 23 Aug 2013, 20:06:32

I can't believe I survived 'til day twelve. Awesome game, DOM.

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Re: Finale: Glorious Cheese

Postby Admetus » 23 Aug 2013, 20:10:24

Hooray, good game! Sadly now I have to leave the god's eye view, and return to doing things that will cause sad sighs in the dead thread myself!

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Re: Finale: Glorious Cheese

Postby Ozymandias » 23 Aug 2013, 20:12:19

Hellheart wrote:Visigoth played this about as well as he could have without banging Ryvvn over the head with reasoning like I would have (and that would only work because I'd make DOM back me up like a dick since Ryvvn was fuzzy about me as a human). He cleared Ryvvn because he got a power, and oh by the way didn't your power PM CLEARLY MENTION SKY, Ryvvn? Don't the wolves have to give up their word to maul?

Agreed. Visigoth making such a good case so succinctly was difficult for Anvilfang to overcome without looking like a desperate Wolf.

I particularly liked the "Why not lock your vote?" challenge that Visigoth issued to Anvilfang. Very nicely done.

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Re: Finale: Glorious Cheese

Postby Visigoth » 23 Aug 2013, 20:39:03

First, great game DOM. My earlier post about feeling out of it and just waiting for the HA to finish it up wasn't really that truthful. There was a little bit of frustration but that was more due to RL getting in the way so was kind of loosely paying attention. So in that sense I did feel out it and was kind just flinging some things out there. I didn't mind not getting feedback on my power use since I figured that with so many people the odds of multiple hitting would be thin anyhow. I'm just glad I got a power in the end which was critical to the end game... or not.

Second, I think Hellheart deserves a nice round of applause since I think the plan laid out with the power targeting and such really worked well. Other than Augie taking one for the team of course. Mistakes happen. Can't make an omelet without breaking some eggs.

Was a bit surprised to live to the last day actually. I figured that since I'd been Seer'd a human I was pretty much untouchable in a 2:1 situation since even if there was some conversion or whatnot the game would have been over. So you have one full on human in the group and the other that used his power on me the night before which did result in a power it doesn't leave many places to hide. Take me out and it's possible, maybe, that he might have been able to get one of the others lynched instead.

Omega I was a bit wary of you when you PM'd me since, as I mentioned in my reply, I had just made a post in which I was suspicious of MEM and then here comes a PM from you saying to vote on him tomorrow. Felt very much like a set-up.

Ryvvn I think most people remember their first game here pretty well especially if they end up at the end and with one wrong move it could cost the game. I still fondly remember my first (TWG 15, the BSG game), since I was in a similar position on the last day. Of course for me I was trying to convince the other two humans (who had earlier locked their votes on me) to not only unlock their votes to prevent the wolves from locking and ending the game, but to also lynch FurinMirado instead of me. That was a rather exciting day to say the least. It also has nothing to do with my innate distrust of FurinMirado... nope, not at all. :flail:

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Re: Finale: Glorious Cheese

Postby Blindsniper83 » 23 Aug 2013, 21:31:55

i still stand by my love of being most votes recieved, even if it was on day 2 :flail:
RaveBomb making a lot of sense is how you know you're past the point of no return and that death is the only escape.

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Re: Finale: Glorious Cheese

Postby RaveBomb » 23 Aug 2013, 22:26:18

A good opening to the new digs.

Would play again.
If our team loses, it's going to be entirely your fault.-rekard
If you still end up losing after this, it's totally not your fault.-Hellheart
Thank you, RaveBomb, for doing the insane thing and not betraying me to our inevitable collective demise.-Okaros

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Re: Finale: Glorious Cheese

Postby Smirker » 24 Aug 2013, 16:45:26

Well done all, and thanks for running the game DOM. :)

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Re: Finale: Glorious Cheese

Postby Mister E. Meat » 25 Aug 2013, 06:26:15

As I left for vacation a few days ago, I'm sad to come back online to see a human win :). Congrats to Ryvvn it appears and the rest of the humans. Looking back, there are a few things I wish I had done differently in terms of reveals and mauls but I doubt it would have made a huge difference.

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Re: Finale: Glorious Cheese

Postby Ozymandias » 25 Aug 2013, 10:31:54

Mister E. Meat wrote:As I left for vacation a few days ago, I'm sad to come back online to see a human win :). Congrats to Ryvvn it appears and the rest of the humans. Looking back, there are a few things I wish I had done differently in terms of reveals and mauls but I doubt it would have made a huge difference.

I think the Wolves' biggest mistake was who they decided to maul or vig or lynch when they had a huge vote manipulation power.

Mauling Nitestorm (Earth) and twdog (Cheese) on Nights 1 and 2 was fine.

Mauling Ionitor (Non-Elem) on Night 3 though I think was a mistake-- especially when you then used MEM's ability to lynch me (Non-Elem) on Day 5 and mauled Zark (Non-Elem) on Night 5.

That left just three Non-Elementals in the Game-- two of which were Wolves!

So you basically destroyed any shot simon and CAD had of winning the end game, because once DOM told the Humans that there were 7 Wolves, it would be pretty easy to figure out that two of the Non-Elementals had to Wolves.

That's why you shouldn't have wasted those kills on Ionitor, Zark, and especially me.

I mean, can you imagine what would have happened if San wound up with almost 20 lynch votes on Day 5?

Not only would I likely have been lynched the next day, but I think after I'm revealed as Human that Furin might get lynched the day after that.

So the Wolves deciding to use Furin's corrupted power to lynch me was, I think, ultimately the turning point in the game.

Which is funny, because after I died I was SUPER pissed at Furin for lying about his power to me-- he never once mentioned that he could control the lynch votes of those he PM'ed. Instead, he claimed that if a Wolf PM"ed him, he would be immune from the maul. So I decided to risk the chance of Furin's maul avoidance power backfiring on me, because I figured (correctly) that I was probably getting mauled soon anyway.

But instead I got lynched and Zark got mauled, which I think was the best possible result that day for the Humans ...

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Re: Finale: Glorious Cheese

Postby Ozymandias » 25 Aug 2013, 11:00:03

Ozymandias wrote:
Mister E. Meat wrote:As I left for vacation a few days ago, I'm sad to come back online to see a human win :). Congrats to Ryvvn it appears and the rest of the humans. Looking back, there are a few things I wish I had done differently in terms of reveals and mauls but I doubt it would have made a huge difference.

I think the Wolves' biggest mistake was who they decided to maul or vig or lynch when they had a huge vote manipulation power.

Aside from killing me on Day 5, I think mauling Furin (Fire) on Night 10 and Rave (Fire) on Night 13 were the Wolves' most obvious mistakes.

Because by Day 10, Anvilfang (Fire) was clearly the Wolves' only realistic shot at winning, and since spheno was in the process of getting lynched on Day 10 because he was the last Earth Elemental in the game, the Wolves should have tried harder to make sure that the other three Fire elementals stayed in the game as long as possible. I think Furin had publicly claimed Fire by then, and Rave and Meta4 were both suspected of being Fire.

The main reason Anvilfang made it to the end is that simon forgot to put his mirror up and thus lucked into the role masking power that the Wolves used on Meta4.

That and conversion paranoia gave Anvilfang a chance, but I think once Ravebomb (the final Human Fire Elemental) was mauled, the game was effectively over.

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Re: Finale: Glorious Cheese

Postby Anvilfang » 25 Aug 2013, 16:31:26

Hind sight is 20/20. I tried my best.

I mauled Ravebomb because of his seering bluff. I had to respond to his PM, and I assumed he would have gotten his seering of me that night so he had to go asap.

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Re: Finale: Glorious Cheese

Postby Ozymandias » 25 Aug 2013, 17:21:42

Anvilfang wrote:Hind sight is 20/20. I tried my best.

Well, you yourself suggested on Night 5 that keeping me alive might make sense ...

Anvilfang wrote:Okay so I'm thinking that if Ozy's train continues, we should point MEM's votes to someone else. We could play that as an Ozy wolf manuever and push for a lynch tomorrow.

Or is that too much of a gamble to let him live and to just be safe we take him out today? Thoughts?

... even though I believe you were the Wolf who most often expressed a desire to maul me up to that point. So it's not like one of you didn't think of it at the time.

I just don't see why I was considered that big a threat, given how many people were suspicious of me in the day thread.

Regardless of whether killing me off was the right move, mauling yet another Non-Elemental (Zark) after killing Ionitor and I was clearly a mistake, as that's what eventually made simon such an obvious lynch target.
Last edited by Ozymandias on 25 Aug 2013, 17:42:46, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Finale: Glorious Cheese

Postby Ozymandias » 25 Aug 2013, 17:22:28

Anvilfang wrote:I mauled Ravebomb because of his seering bluff. I had to respond to his PM, and I assumed he would have gotten his seering of me that night so he had to go asap.

Yeah, that was a good ploy-- nice one, Rave!-- though I'm surprised that he was able to sell it given that he only claimed to be targeted by two elements.

Were Rave's Day 13 PMs posted anywhere? I didn't see them in the dead thread.

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Re: Finale: Glorious Cheese

Postby Ozymandias » 25 Aug 2013, 17:36:50

Anvilfang wrote:Hind sight is 20/20. I tried my best.

btw, since I did some whining on behalf of the Humans in the dead thread, let me throw in one for the Wolves:

In the endgame, I thought it was unfair that the Humans were able to exploit Anvilfang's inability to use his power on Nights he was mauling to confirm that he was a Wolf.

I think it's a flawed game mechanic because it allowed the Humans to find a Wolf on a technicality.

It would have been more fair if the rule were that only one Wolf could use his power on nights they mauled (instead of the actual "only a subset of Wolves can still corrupt" rule).

Just something for future GMs to keep in mind ...

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Re: Finale: Glorious Cheese

Postby Iron Clad Burrito » 25 Aug 2013, 18:04:21

Ozymandias wrote:I just don't see why I was considered that big a threat, given how many people were suspicious of me in the day thread.


Dude, do you even know who you are? :lol:

It's simple, for me (and I'm sure others, but I'd not speak for anyone else in particular). The longer you live, no matter how wrong you've been, the more likely you are to nail it all down eventually. This in addition to the fact that despite KNOWING you were a human, I can't trust that what you say in the day thread is true -- by your own admission, you sprinkle lies in your machinations when publicly discussing them, to keep your enemies off balance.

You're damn good. You're better than most of us, most of the time. Despite the fact that you were a non-elemental, you're not a non-threat, until you're dead. :)

Knowing that, killing you when your analysis is off allows people (people better than I, apparently) to try to exploit the situation, either by discrediting those items you got right, or to try to encourage the incorrect conclusions to get others lynched.

As it stands, while I was arguing to delay your death a little longer, I think the wolves actually let you live just a little too long. Your list did turn out to be a nice starting point for the humans to start working the system.

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Re: Finale: Glorious Cheese

Postby Ozymandias » 25 Aug 2013, 22:49:16

Iron Clad Burrito wrote:As it stands, while I was arguing to delay your death a little longer, I think the wolves actually let you live just a little too long. Your list did turn out to be a nice starting point for the humans to start working the system.

You mean the Probable Humans list that had three Wolves on it? :(

Look, I get that I'm considered to be a good player, and that Wolves mauling players that they think are good generally makes sense.

That's partly why I'm so confrontational, because I'm trying to make myself a credible lynch candidate so that the Wolves will have reason not to maul me. (Also? it's a lot more fun :twisted: ) I figure if I'm not at least somewhat likely to get lynched then I'm almost certain to get mauled.

But I've NEVER felt more under siege in the Day thread for such a prolonged period than I have this game, what with the attacks on my various plans (fair enough), lack of RP (huh?), failed "bandwagons" that didn't actually kill anybody (say what?), and last but not least "selective editing" (what the fuck?)-- which I found particularly galling because I was pretty sure it was coming from a fellow Human.

So it's hard for me to believe I would have been able to survive Day 6 if San had magically wound up with 14+ votes instead of me. Anyway, it sure seemed like seeing if that would get me lynched would be worth a shot to the Wolves, even at the "risk" of leaving me alive for one more day.

Because let's face it, I'm no longer the same "Ozymandias" who started out winning his first 7 games and 10 of his first 11 (note that I'm using the third person not just to be pretentious but also to augment my stats by excluding the first masked account game). Ever since my loss in Game 25 (which ironically was probably the best Human game I ever played), my record has been pretty unremarkable. And that was more than two years ago.

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Re: Finale: Glorious Cheese

Postby rekard » 26 Aug 2013, 06:11:54

Well you can blame Smirker for that loss on Game 25.

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Re: Finale: Glorious Cheese

Postby Simple_Simon » 26 Aug 2013, 07:24:01

Ozymandias wrote:
Anvilfang wrote:Hind sight is 20/20. I tried my best.

Well, you yourself suggested on Night 5 that keeping me alive might make sense ...

Anvilfang wrote:Okay so I'm thinking that if Ozy's train continues, we should point MEM's votes to someone else. We could play that as an Ozy wolf manuever and push for a lynch tomorrow.

Or is that too much of a gamble to let him live and to just be safe we take him out today? Thoughts?

... even though I believe you were the Wolf who most often expressed a desire to maul me up to that point. So it's not like one of you didn't think of it at the time.

I just don't see why I was considered that big a threat, given how many people were suspicious of me in the day thread.

Regardless of whether killing me off was the right move, mauling yet another Non-Elemental (Zark) after killing Ionitor and I was clearly a mistake, as that's what eventually made simon such an obvious lynch target.


Nah I think the mistake (if you want to call it that) was not mauling you as soon as you became a threat to us. I'd go on about this but honestly I can't find the right words to express my thoughts on the matter without coming off as whiny and combative. I'll leave it with I think there are some pretty serious flaws in some people's idea of sportsmanship, I don't have any better answers unfortunately, but leaving some people alive just to be nice isn't a winning strategy.

(pre-post edit, I'm going to take a stab at it with my thoughts in the spoiler)

[+] Ramblings of a crazy person
I get that getting killed repeatedly on day one sucks ass. We've all been there done that and wear our t-shirts with some manner of pride, or ineptitude. The best and only (to my knowledge) response to this aspect of the game is to honor system the kills. Giving some people under certain (personally definable) circumstances immunity for several days. I'm not against this as a general rule, it does make sense not to pick on certain people.

There are however ways to game this honor system to personal advantage. Ozy either willingly or unwittingly provided a perfect example in this game. He was a valid threat to the wolves pretty much from his first post on. Yet we couldn't touch him. This allowed him to start building an HA, and we couldn't do anything about it. He was able to post plan after plan with revisions from day to day, yet we couldn't touch him. When it finally got green lit, the damage had been done and the game lost.

Now I know that if I ever make that list I have several days at the beginning of a game (human) where I simply won't be touched. I can make myself as much a maul target as I want, but it's unsporting to kill me? If I may make a suggestion, we stop this sooner than later.

This game in my opinion (and experience) is supposed to be a balancing act between what information you give away, what you keep, what/when you post, etc. The goal is to balance your threat level with the wolves with your ability to help the humans. Too much one way or the other should always get you mauled or lynched, regardless of prior performances.

Now before I go any further I want to explain a bit on how I play the wolf game with you guys. I like you guys, I really do. Some of you I have known for years from IRL to other games and such. However when a new game starts all of that ends. You are not my friends anymore, you're just names. For all intents and purposes you may as well just be numbers as far as I am concerned.

What that means is past performance isn't taken into account, generally. Some past posting methods or tells may be analyzed while working with your name but unfortunately that is unavoidable. The vast majority of data and game analysis comes from running your name against whatever it is I am working on and seeing if it sticks. Sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn't. That means that sometimes I can pick on the same person over and over again. Other times it's entirely random depending on what I am trying to accomplish.

My point in the above is that I am not playing against my friend RaveBomb or Blindsniper, I am playing against their names and their posts in this game. I do my level best to ensure past information doesn't taint my analysis of any current games. I take everyone's actions on a game by game basis, not on a person by person basis.

Now if you apply that to untold code of sportsmanship above I may have a small solution. Accept each game as it's own and each person's actions within that game as their own. That means that you can extend them the courtesy of not mauling them on day 1 without reason. However if like this game a person comes out the gate as threat to your team, you should not be faulted for treating them as such, in that game.

If there had been room for any discussion on the matter (I felt it was pretty solid we were not discussing certain maul targets for several days) I would have pressed harder for Ozy's early maul, in this case sportsmanship be damned. He made the choice to throw balance out the window and make himself an early threat to the wolves. If he continues to make that choice the consequences (just like for the rest of us) should be early mauls.

In summary I don't think we should be providing a blanket of security for players with early mauls or deaths in previous games. If those players make themselves into a maul/lynch/vig target by actions within the current game they should always be fair game. If that was the case in this game we'd have silenced Ozy much earlier, perhaps it wouldn't have won us the game but we'd have had a fighting chance after day 4 in my opinion.


Further the only other two issues I had with the game are ..

1. Admins/mods posting in locked day threads. Isn't generally too much of an issue, it's usually just friendly banter. However for at least a day or so after seeing this post (viewtopic.php?f=18&t=61&start=150#p2405) I felt cheated and lost any desire to play.

As a note, I am not accusing Ravebomb or anyone of cheating, I know among this group that isn't something we have to be concerned about. However seeing that posted before the new day was posted initially led me to believe there was some manner of shenanigans going on. That makes no mention of the extra posts in a day thread where no one playing the game had the opportunity to post and or refute any thing posted. I'd like to ask in future games that admins/mods refrain from posting in locked day threads unless they are GM'ing that particular game. Not just because of the above but just out of kindness to those playing that all conversations within day threads happening between players occurs in a manner that all the other players can respond.

2. I'm still unclear (despite looking around, albeit not too hard) as to why Omega received 6 penalty votes. I did ask at least once (and decided not to press the issue) and haven't seen the answer yet.
For what it's worth, though, his talking to himself is awfully entertaining.-sphen
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he is a master bullshitter so he could just take things out of his own ass or whatever comes from his mind to argue.-Rekard

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Re: Finale: Glorious Cheese

Postby RaveBomb » 26 Aug 2013, 07:38:22

Simple_Simon wrote:1. Admins/mods posting in locked day threads.


Although it only happened once this game, that was probably once too many. We'll curb that.

I'd suggest that at the GM's discretion violators get penalty votes or similar.
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Re: Finale: Glorious Cheese

Postby Ionitor » 26 Aug 2013, 08:20:32

Simple_Simon wrote:2. I'm still unclear (despite looking around, albeit not too hard) as to why Omega received 6 penalty votes. I did ask at least once (and decided not to press the issue) and haven't seen the answer yet.

His PM power was corrupted, so he got a penalty vote for each person that replied to him. Described here.

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Re: Finale: Glorious Cheese

Postby DastardlyOldMan » 26 Aug 2013, 08:30:34

From simple_simon:

1) While I personally understand the "protected list" concept, even when it was started, my argument was: If you want to live by that code, so be it, but that is a personal preference of yours. The voting for people who voted for people on their protected list, and the other peer-pressure to get other people to live by that ~unwritten rule, I don't agree with, and I don't particularly like. You can not-vote for whomever you want, but I'm going to vote for whomever I want.

2) I must have missed the question the first time, although if it was in-game, you wouldn't have had that knowledge. Omega's power was corrupted by MEM. If you read up on that power here, you'll see the details (I think this is the one you're asking about).

e: GDI, Ionitor.

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Re: Finale: Glorious Cheese

Postby Ozymandias » 26 Aug 2013, 08:41:20

Simple_Simon wrote:
Ozymandias wrote:1. Admins/mods posting in locked day threads. Isn't generally too much of an issue, it's usually just friendly banter. However for at least a day or so after seeing this post (viewtopic.php?f=18&t=61&start=150#p2405) I felt cheated and lost any desire to play.

As a note, I am not accusing Ravebomb or anyone of cheating, I know among this group that isn't something we have to be concerned about. However seeing that posted before the new day was posted initially led me to believe there was some manner of shenanigans going on.

I'm confused-- didn't ICB start the shenanigans? Why are you more upset with Ravebomb?

You do realize he didn't actually know that ICB was a Wolf, right?

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Re: Finale: Glorious Cheese

Postby Ionitor » 26 Aug 2013, 08:52:07

DastardlyOldMan wrote:1) While I personally understand the "protected list" concept, even when it was started, my argument was: If you want to live by that code, so be it, but that is a personal preference of yours. The voting for people who voted for people on their protected list, and the other peer-pressure to get other people to live by that ~unwritten rule, I don't agree with, and I don't particularly like. You can not-vote for whomever you want, but I'm going to vote for whomever I want.

Yes, I feel no compunction against making DOM regret his choice of my role in the next game ASAP. :x

Personally, I tend to match DOM's view point on this. I have my own guides for who I won't lynch/maul (primarily newbies on the first couples of days). For me, it's about making the game fun and encouraging participation. I don't want someone to quit because they always die early; I don't want people to be quiet because they'll get killed if they talk too much; I don't want the RPers to die because they haven't made any analysis by day 3. I never know how the balance will work out on a given game, though, and the only time the non-newbie rules come up is if someone specifically asks me to vote for someone that I'm trying to keep alive. Other people can and should vote for whoever they want.

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Re: Finale: Glorious Cheese

Postby sphenodont » 26 Aug 2013, 08:56:55

Ozymandias wrote:You do realize he didn't actually know that ICB was a Wolf, right?


I will say that it is a lot harder to report bugs and try to correct them when the only way to know about said bug is to be of the opposite faction as two of the other mods.

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Re: Finale: Glorious Cheese

Postby necklessone » 26 Aug 2013, 08:58:04

simon:
My personal code of protection is along the lines of "I won't randomly vote for certain players under certain conditions in the first two days" but I have no problem trying to get people killed when there's a reason regardless of previous games.

Of course, that kind of thinking then leads to Ozy shooting me in the face. :D C'est la vie.

Any kind of consideration that's being given needs to be secondary to the events of the current game.

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Re: Finale: Glorious Cheese

Postby Admetus » 26 Aug 2013, 09:08:40

Simple_Simon wrote:Ramblings of a crazy person

I don't want to seem argumentative, because I agree with most of your reasoning. But I just wanted to give two comments back.

As much as you try to wipe the slate clean for a game, could you really ignore something like, for instance, Ozy not posting confrontational conjecture? Wouldn't that be worth comment, whether you were a human or a wolf? People don't forget their impressions of other people, and they're judged by them, even when differences are circumstantial. (And then I get lynched by day 2 because I'm not chatty enough when I've got houseguests. ;) )

And point two was going to be about driving people away from the game and blaming them for it (As in: You should have played better if you didn't want to get killed early every game!), but I see Iontior made the point better while the post draft was sitting unfinished.

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Re: Finale: Glorious Cheese

Postby RaveBomb » 26 Aug 2013, 09:28:39

Ozymandias wrote:
Simple_Simon wrote:
Ozymandias wrote:1. Admins/mods posting in locked day threads. Isn't generally too much of an issue, it's usually just friendly banter. However for at least a day or so after seeing this post (viewtopic.php?f=18&t=61&start=150#p2405) I felt cheated and lost any desire to play.

As a note, I am not accusing Ravebomb or anyone of cheating, I know among this group that isn't something we have to be concerned about. However seeing that posted before the new day was posted initially led me to believe there was some manner of shenanigans going on.

I'm confused-- didn't ICB start the shenanigans? Why are you more upset with Ravebomb?

You do realize he didn't actually know that ICB was a Wolf, right?


I'm going to make one more comment on Day 6. Ozy is correct. I had no idea that ICB was a wolf. He was being talked about a lot and he was the frontrunner for being able to take the vote lead off of me. Therefor my language was peppered with wolfy stuff. Everybody is a wolf, right up until they ain't. Even my last comment "Wolves don't get to explode" was made with the idea that ICB was a wolf in the same way that Ozy, rekard, and everyone else in the game (except me :) ) was a wolf.
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Re: Finale: Glorious Cheese

Postby Ozymandias » 26 Aug 2013, 09:35:12

Well, here's my current list of people I won't vote for (as long as they don't vote for me) on the first two days, in order:

(1) Newbies
(2) GM of previous game
(3) Night 1 maul target of previous game
(4) Day 1 lynch target of previous game (ranked below (3) because at least he had a chance to defend himself)

So that's not a very long list. Just seems like common courtesy to give them an extended chance to play in the next game, so voting to lynch or maul any of them for any reason other than self-defense on Day/Night 1 strikes me as a dick move. As for Day/Night 2, if I had a specific reason to vote for them I would, but I'd strongly prefer not to.

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Re: Finale: Glorious Cheese

Postby Ryvvn » 26 Aug 2013, 10:12:10

Though I'm new here, I personally would only try to avoid voting for anyone who is in their first game* for Day 1 (and maybe 2); but I kind of agree with SS, if someone's outright acting as a threatening member of the opposing faction, they're getting voted** or mauled! (However, I would not include previous game behavior in this analysis, mainly because I probably won't remember -- I have a terrible memory.)

I guess it's just a furry gray area, as we definitely wouldn't want to give certain players a free pass to act as blatant as they want right out the gate.


*Yes, consider me a viable target Day 1 next game; especially considering I "won" this last one, I sort of expect it to be coming.

**For what it's worth, I hate voting on Day 1; and would always prefer to just abstain or vote "No Lynch" when starting if possible, unless provoked. (Though I realize such a stance does not necessarily help the game.)

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Re: Finale: Glorious Cheese

Postby Ionitor » 26 Aug 2013, 10:21:35

Ryvvn wrote:For what it's worth, I hate voting on Day 1; and would always prefer to just abstain or vote "No Lynch" when starting if possible, unless provoked. (Though I realize such a stance does not necessarily help the game.)

Yeah, it's kind of odd -- lynching someone on day 1 is unlikely to kill a wolf, but if everyone went with "no lynch" (assuming the GM allowed it), then the maul would happen, and day 2 would be like day 1 with one less person. There are some situations where it makes some sense, but it's often due to rulesets that need some tweaking. I don't think many GMs would allow it, anyway.

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Re: Finale: Glorious Cheese

Postby Ozymandias » 26 Aug 2013, 10:30:10

Simple_Simon wrote:There are however ways to game this honor system to personal advantage. Ozy either willingly or unwittingly provided a perfect example in this game. He was a valid threat to the wolves pretty much from his first post on. Yet we couldn't touch him.

Couldn't touch me? That's bullshit!

(a) On Night 0, TWO wolves targeted me, resulting in my getting a corrupted vote manipulation power, which in a lot of plausible scenarios could have resulted in my lynch.

(b) On Night 1, you couldn't maul me even if you wanted to, because of stigmata's knockout power.

(c) In the Night 2 thread, you repeatedly asked MEM to use his overwhelming bandwagon power to take me out. As sphenodont pointed out, I think that would have been a mistake that resulted in MEM's subsequent lynch, but no Wolf ever said that MEM shouldn't be able to take me out if he so desired.

(d) On Night 3, you yourself wanted to maul Ionitor instead of me, because you thought that his death would make me look more suspicious than my death would make him look.

(e) On Night 4, you decided not to maul so that you could full corrupt and try your "I lost my mirror" ploy.

(f) On Night 5, the Wolves maneuvered to both lynch AND conditionally maul me. Pretty sure that you would have tried to vig me too, given the chance.

So really the only night that the Wolves gave me a "break" was Night 2-- every other night that you could, you tried to attack me in some way.

Simple_Simon wrote:This allowed him to start building an HA, and we couldn't do anything about it.

You mean besides corrupt the powers of the targeted HA players, so that you could overhear our PMs and control our vote manipulation powers?

Simple_Simon wrote:He was able to post plan after plan with revisions from day to day, yet we couldn't touch him.

As I noted above-- BULLSHIT. If you wanted to maul me on Night 3 or 4, I don't think any of the other Wolves would have objected.

So don't blame them for your tactical decisions not to maul me on those nights.

Simple_Simon wrote:When it finally got green lit, the damage had been done and the game lost.

What damage? My plan failed to expose a Wolf, and the only Wolf who was lynched while I was alive died in spite of my power usage against Zark.

The only "damage" I did was to publicly establish the Humanity of players like Ryvvn.

Which you could have very easily counteracted by, you know, MAULING HIM.

Instead, you let not just one but TWO confirmed Human Elementals live until the end of the game.

That's the main reason you lost.

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Re: Finale: Glorious Cheese

Postby Admetus » 26 Aug 2013, 10:39:09

On Night 0, TWO wolves targeted me, resulting in my getting a corrupted vote manipulation power, which in a lot of plausible scenarios could have resulted in my lynch.

That was some drama. I remember being absolutely certain you were dead day 1, and then Stigmata came in with the late beating-save.

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Ozymandias
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Re: Finale: Glorious Cheese

Postby Ozymandias » 26 Aug 2013, 10:43:38

rekard wrote:Well you can blame Smirker for that loss on Game 25.

Oh, I started blaming him in the Dead Thread less than 15 minutes after his death.

Which it seems fitting to point out now that I've finally overtaken him as post count leader!

Because there's no courtesy for the Courtesan-- suck it, Smirker!

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Re: Finale: Glorious Cheese

Postby Ozymandias » 26 Aug 2013, 10:46:38

Admetus wrote:
On Night 0, TWO wolves targeted me, resulting in my getting a corrupted vote manipulation power, which in a lot of plausible scenarios could have resulted in my lynch.

That was some drama. I remember being absolutely certain you were dead day 1, and then Stigmata came in with the late beating-save.

Actually, about an hour before I got knocked out I PM'ed DOM to turn off my power on the three people who already voted for me ...

Ozymandias wrote:Let's REMOVE the penalty votes from dferrantino, Anzig, and simple_simon,
but keep them in place for ANYONE ELSE who votes to lynch me today, if that's okay.


... so I think I would have been fine as long as two more people didn't vote for me.


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