The Games Idea Thread

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Re: The Games Idea Thread

Postby That PJ » 26 Jul 2015, 11:28:49

Just wanted to pop in and say that I think this concept is really damn cool and I'd like to play it. I actually managed to miss out on every map game that's ever been run here, I think, so I've got no opinions about prior complexity (though I do agree that, in general, maintaining that much thought and strategizing on a daily basis will not prove successful).

I really like that this gives the dead something to do, too.
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Re: The Games Idea Thread

Postby DastardlyOldMan » 26 Jul 2015, 19:05:51

I've been mulling this one over in my head a bit, going to throw out some concerns. Overall, I like the approach, and I think it'll be a fun game.

First of all, this is going to very difficult for the humans to coordinate - they have to plan their defense publicly in order to mount any reasonable defense, which means the un/dead are going to know where the best gaps are. We can confound that a little bit by having xx players guard yy areas (you three guard those two areas, etc.). Or do the dead on the outside not see the day thread on the inside? On the flipside, the living can just figure out the smallest area they *need* to defend, form a perimeter, and stop the undead cold. They may even be able to do that while sending out ranging patrols to guard random other areas: Bob, Bill, Jim, Tom - guard areas A/B/C/D. Two other people randomly help them. The other six people go randomly protect other areas, and if we happen to stop the undead, we slow them down. Otherwise, who really cares, because we've protected our core area?

Secondly, just not clear on the win conditions. Are humans still trying to clear out wolves, and then they don't care about the dead? Wolves still trying to reach parity? There's no real way to *defeat* the undead, so it feels like the game we had where we were racing against the clock - we can just stop the clock every once in a bit. Can the humans ever actually kill the dead (possibly by stopping the 1 starting dead guy)? You may also want a backup - sometimes, you throw that one special guy in the mix, and he gets vigged 15 minutes after the game starts.

Mostly minor concerns, though - in general, seems like a sound concept. I'm a touch worried that our ability to coordinate as a group is somewhat questionable, so the undead will just overrun us on Day 1 :)

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Re: The Games Idea Thread

Postby twdog » 26 Jul 2015, 21:02:20

Thanks for your reply; I appreciate it

Well, I do think the dead need to be able to read the dayboard, but maybe not the wolf board. Partially because of planning, but also because dead people like to follow along with what's going on in the game just as spectators if nothing else. A goal here is to let people knocked out in the first couple of days still play along, in a fashion.

That brings me around to win conditions. The previous times the dead would have won if at any point we were down to 3 players. I had hoped to give them powers like vote manipulation to be able to make that happen, but I never really followed through with it because it wouldn't be fun if you spend all day carefully considering who to vote on, and then at the end of day a bunch of dead players wildly swing the vote all over the place. It's not often that we end up with the last two humans lynching the last wolf. It happens of course, but at least to me, it doesn't feel like the usual thing. The last 3 humans lynching the last wolf seems more typical. I could be wrong. Anyway, my point is that I don't think having the dead win if we get to 3 players is the best way to do this. Even though the dead haven't won either of my previous game, I wanted there to be a realistic chance that they might. So now I think it'll be:

humans exterminate wolf and dead aligned players = human win
wolves reach parity with dead aligned and humans = wolf win
dead occupy sufficient "critical locations" = dead win

The humans only need to take out the wolves/dead aligned and keep enough critical locations under their control. There would be only a single dead aligned player, the same as Admetus in the Space:1899 game. Even if someone(s) has a private win condition, they still count as either wolf or human for parity. If the wolves achieve parity or the humans kill them all, the dead just go away for, you know, "reasons". If the dead aligned player gets killed, I'm going to allow the dead to offer someone the chance to convert to their side. The living player would have to accept the offer, it wouldn't be forced on them vampire style. Still, faction conversions can really screw vote analysis. And what if that guy dies? Do we just keep allowing them to (potentially) covert more and more people? No, that seems like a bad idea. Perhaps one conversion during the game total. Either way, it'd be in the rules. I've come to realize that secret factions rarely work well. If the game was, say 20 cycles long, then there'd be time to discover and react to the existence of a secret faction. There'd be time for intricate plots to play out, but as it is there just aren't enough cycles for that sort of thing. I'm ok with surprises in a game, I like unexpected surprises, but I think a full on secret faction is too much of a surprise

---

As for killing the dead, I might allow that, but it'd have to be done in some simple and easy way. I was looking at my previous games, and I really cringe at the rule length. Maybe something like "you're the vig, and if the undead attack your location you kill one of them. if you vig someone, you lose this passive power"

---

I'm toying around with having certain locations provide passive benefits to the group, as long as they were under living control. For instance, there would be a Post Office and as long as it's under living control you can send PMs. You don't need to "use" the location or travel there; is the location under living control? Then everyone can send PMs, under some restriction of quantity of recipients or messages, of course. That might help with coordination, and give another place for the living to want to defend. I'm thinking about several "passive power" type places. No searching needed, we'd all know about them at the start. You'd still need to make a deal with the dead if you want the good powers, of course. But certain "lesser" powers could be available to all as long as the living held the area

After doing some testing, I'm going to change it a bit. The undead can take an area, if they outnumber the living in the area. Originally, if an area had even a single living person in it they could hold off unlimited numbers of dead. After testing, that seems over powered.
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Re: The Games Idea Thread

Postby twdog » 03 Aug 2015, 19:21:03

Clearasday wrote:
twdog wrote:
Clearasday wrote: this sounds like the closest to THE THING we've got so far.


I agree. I've played around a few times with a THE THING themed game, but I could never make it work from a fluff standpoint. It basically has to be primarily a conversion game, and to be honest, I don't know how to deal with a game where enemy #1 is a conversion faction. Not merely a secret conversion faction with a private goal of surviving to the end.

It's too bad too, because "paranoid people trapped on a isolated besieged base/town" is one of my favorite tropes.

I want to talk a lot about this but I don't want to derail the thread. I've never been able to get it to work either. Tales (the other forum) tried it too. If any of your ideas ever gain momentum I'd be happy to help with mechanics or something.


Ok, here's the crux of my issue with conversion centric games: it screws up voting analysis. You might have a very good read on someone, and your read might be right, but overnight that person can change. So voting is very tough because you can't trust voting history. If you have wolves in the game, it get's worse because any converted wolf becomes a vector for the converters to influence the maul. I don't see how humans can win against a faction that can convert every night without limitations. For limitations, I've seen it where there's an "alpha" converter and if that alpha gets killed off the whole faction dies or at least can't convert anymore. But that's problematic because the Alpha's strategy would be to play the perfect human, lynching his teammates even, just to outlast the humans. That'd be damn hard to detect. Plus, what if the alpha gets killed off on day 1 or 2 by chance, now the whole game is basically over. I guess you could have a game with a bunch of seers in it, but that doesn't sound like fun for the non-seers, because they're just going to wait around until there's a massive seer info dump late in the game. Also that'd suck for the converter faction, because even if they were playing perfectly, getting crippled through mass seering, not bad play, sucks from a fun perspective.

I almost think you need to move away from one lynch and one maul every cycle. Like, maybe people could vote to "test" a person, and if they come back tainted then kill them. Something like that. But that lends itself to either 1) a core of "clean" humans dominating the game or 2) the vote analysis getting screwed up anyway because someone clean is later converted. What's your thoughts?
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Re: The Games Idea Thread

Postby Okaros » 03 Aug 2015, 19:29:24

twdog wrote:I almost think you need to move away from one lynch and one maul every cycle. Like, maybe people could vote to "test" a person, and if they come back tainted then kill them.


Funny you should mention this... ;)
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Re: The Games Idea Thread

Postby twdog » 03 Aug 2015, 19:41:12

Oh god! Look, if this the converter I don't think I can handle it


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Re: The Games Idea Thread

Postby DastardlyOldMan » 04 Aug 2015, 06:38:49

Check Mortus' Psychiatrist game - he used a sanitarium / imprisonment scenario, where the lynch was really an imprisonment, and the Psychologist could unconvert converted people. The timing of the actions on that game caused it to go a littly hinky - I think the humans imprisoned the seer to keep him safe from conversion, but then he was released and converted at the exact same time, . . . but anyhow, the principle was fairly sound in that one.

Several of our conversion games (that one included) have used an alternating-conversion. In one case, there were two "columns" - two disciples, and each converted every other night. That also had a limitation that the converts didn't know one another, and the latest convert selected the next victim. Limited PM capability for the cult leader. So, there was a high chance of overlapping conversions or lynching someone on your own side, etc. - all you knew was who you personally converted to the cause.

I think the Hot Fuzz game was supposed to alternate conversion/maul as well. In both of those games, one of the two leaders died on Day 1 (or at least, before they were actually active).

So, I think conversion games work well, but you have to really limit the conversion team more than you would a typical wolf team.

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Re: The Games Idea Thread

Postby dferrantino » 04 Aug 2015, 06:49:36

DastardlyOldMan wrote:I think the Hot Fuzz game was supposed to alternate conversion/maul as well. In both of those games, one of the two leaders died on Day 1 (or at least, before they were actually active).

Hey, I technically made it to day 4!

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Re: The Games Idea Thread

Postby Clearasday » 07 Aug 2015, 17:43:49

twdog wrote:Ok, here's the crux of my issue with conversion centric games: it screws up voting analysis. You might have a very good read on someone, and your read might be right, but overnight that person can change. So voting is very tough because you can't trust voting history. If you have wolves in the game, it get's worse because any converted wolf becomes a vector for the converters to influence the maul. I don't see how humans can win against a faction that can convert every night without limitations. For limitations, I've seen it where there's an "alpha" converter and if that alpha gets killed off the whole faction dies or at least can't convert anymore. But that's problematic because the Alpha's strategy would be to play the perfect human, lynching his teammates even, just to outlast the humans. That'd be damn hard to detect. Plus, what if the alpha gets killed off on day 1 or 2 by chance, now the whole game is basically over. I guess you could have a game with a bunch of seers in it, but that doesn't sound like fun for the non-seers, because they're just going to wait around until there's a massive seer info dump late in the game. Also that'd suck for the converter faction, because even if they were playing perfectly, getting crippled through mass seering, not bad play, sucks from a fun perspective.

I almost think you need to move away from one lynch and one maul every cycle. Like, maybe people could vote to "test" a person, and if they come back tainted then kill them. Something like that. But that lends itself to either 1) a core of "clean" humans dominating the game or 2) the vote analysis getting screwed up anyway because someone clean is later converted. What's your thoughts?


I have a few ideas for making conversion games more interesting but I don't want to say too much and spoil any future mayhem.

But I've always thought that a great conversion game could be done via masked accounts. It would be difficult. But it could simulate the Thing actually stealing a victims body. The person would have their masked account stolen and people would have to look for changes in posting style.

Or, if left long enough with the person (two days rather than one?) it could fully convert them, making them both Things.

Of course this would need a mechanic where people could walk in on a Thing converting someone.

I'm just not really satisfied with the vanilla conversion game mechanics as is. Its true that Alpha converters add their own problem if they die straight away. There is definitely a better way to run conversion games, but it might call for changes to the TWG format a bit. I really liked the map-style games. Maybe they could work well as conversion games?
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Re: The Games Idea Thread

Postby twdog » 29 Sep 2015, 12:15:13

So about conversion games ... I'm always a little uneasy about how you can lose the game with near zero notice because the converters have been increasing every night.

What if they didn't have to convert, or perhaps they could only convert with conditions, and whenever they convert someone the GM announces in the start of day post that someone has been converted. This would give the wolves and humans a rough idea of where they stand with faction numbers. Of course, and this is deliberate, some of the wolves could have been converted thus screwing the numbers, and no one would no how many converters the game started with.

So, what do you all think about something like that?
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Re: The Games Idea Thread

Postby Okaros » 29 Sep 2015, 12:34:44

Oh right, I can comment on the conversion stuff more now that my Helix game is out of the way. This may be of interest to CAD and his The Thing musings.

The original mechnical idea I was working on for the Helix game (before I subverted it into a System Shock game) was conversion-by-infection and looked something like this:
1) Someone starts as Patient Zero, randomly selected during Night Zero by an NPC to be infected.
2) Day 1, the infection incubates. Patient Zero doesn't know they're infected and shows no symptoms. Lynching them (putting them in Quarantine) does nothing.
3) Day 2, Patient Zero becomes infectious. They join the wolf forum and are aware that they're infected. The choose someone to spread the infection to that night (was toying with the idea of making it have to be someone voting for them or someone voting for the person they voted for). Lynching them at this point reveals their infectious status and traps them. They can still talk in both forums, but can't vote or infect further, and eventually die when the infection hits critical.
4) Day 3, same as Day 2 but no night-time infection ability, because...
5) Day 4, the infection reaches critical mass and is obvious to everyone. There's never a normal maul, and instead the infected get a suicide-Vig during the day as they tear their chosen victim apart before expiring.

I didn't stare too hard at how it would actually play out in practice, so it might need some tweaking to be fair/fun, but the idea of the conversion being inevitably lethal to the converted was the fun part since it directly solves a number of problems with "standard" conversion mechanics.
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Re: The Games Idea Thread

Postby Admetus » 29 Sep 2015, 12:56:08

Okaros wrote:I didn't stare too hard at how it would actually play out in practice, so it might need some tweaking to be fair/fun, but the idea of the conversion being inevitably lethal to the converted was the fun part since it directly solves a number of problems with "standard" conversion mechanics.

Well, yes, but also no. A different one of the main problems with conversion games is that it's less of a wolf game. Since the person who's converted mid way wasn't a wolf for the first part, you can't try to catch them like you catch a wolf. They didn't give off any wolf tells in their posts. They didn't vote like a wolf. They didn't have to compartmentalize the information they're supposed to know from the extra stuff. This problem isn't made any better if the converts die off -- it's probably actually exaggerated instead, since they never become "older wolves."

Winning the game as a human becomes hugely random. There isn't as much impact of being good at sniffing out a liar in your midst, if you have to detect him on the same day as he became a liar.

I'm not saying all conversion games are terrible. I'm just saying this is an important difference to keep an eye on.

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Re: The Games Idea Thread

Postby Okaros » 29 Sep 2015, 12:58:42

Admetus wrote:I'm not saying all conversion games are terrible. I'm just saying this is an important difference to keep an eye on.


Yeah, that part remains the same no matter what with conversion games, alas. Unless... You could go inception-style and tag people at level 1 to form the wolf team on level 2, for example. But that's not quite the same thing.
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Re: The Games Idea Thread

Postby twdog » 29 Sep 2015, 13:05:49

Okaros wrote:5) Day 4, the infection reaches critical mass and is obvious to everyone. There's never a normal maul, and instead the infected get a suicide-Vig during the day as they tear their chosen victim apart before expiring.


Would that mean the Patient Zero is effectively playing a lone survivor strategy? Not that's a problem, but trying to visualize it.

---

I also find the idea that mauls get shut down if things get too out of hand interesting. I'd don't want to get way off track, but I'm changing the theme to the Lovecraft mythos. Mechanics will be more or less the same. Anyway, one of the concepts is that if the living do badly, the town's level of corruption and terror increase, and if it gets too out of hand all sorts of "unfortunate" effects will happen, including power roles being shut down, and mauls and/or votes being skipped for a day.

Okaros wrote:
Admetus wrote:I'm not saying all conversion games are terrible. I'm just saying this is an important difference to keep an eye on.


Yeah, that part remains the same no matter what with conversion games, alas. Unless... You could go inception-style and tag people at level 1 to form the wolf team on level 2, for example. But that's not quite the same thing.


I agree with this, there should be conflict within the converter group as it expands. Kicking them up a level could be a decent way for that to happen.
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Re: The Games Idea Thread

Postby DastardlyOldMan » 29 Sep 2015, 13:48:16

Just make it mandatory to convert Okaros, problem solved.

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Re: The Games Idea Thread

Postby Okaros » 29 Sep 2015, 14:33:45

twdog wrote:Would that mean the Patient Zero is effectively playing a lone survivor strategy? Not that's a problem, but trying to visualize it.


I had not yet decided on that point. I was exploring both sides of the coin:

a) There's a Typhoid Mary-esque character that can infect but does not go crazy and die on her own. In that path, I was thinking they'd desginate Patient Zero and be able to trigger a new Patient Zero if the initial chain of infections died out (analogous to the cult-leader conversion style where you have to kill the leader to stop the conversions)

b) There is no leader/survivor-type and there's some method of preventing the whole thing from being completely derailed by a single lucky lynch in the early game (multiple Patient Zeroes maybe?). Exploring this is where my train of thought got derailed into System Shock territory and the concept ultimately abandoned. :)


Overall it was inspired by the Helix theme, but also came out of an interest in trying to find ways to make the Infection single-thread game Ryvvn ran a while back more workable/fun/enjoyable at a full-game scale.


I agree with this, there should be conflict within the converter group as it expands. Kicking them up a level could be a decent way for that to happen.

An interesting approach to this might be to take the cult-conversion theme more literally: There's only one leader ot start, but if the cult is too successful it schisms and becomes multiple, smaller competing cults with separate leaders. This has the potential to devolve a cultists vs. humans game into a war between multiple cults but... eh? That's not really a problem if you (the GM) accept that as part of the game from the beginning. :twisted:


DastardlyOldMan wrote:Just make it mandatory to convert Okaros, problem solved.


Hey, only one of us is automatically converted in each and every conversion game.

Hint: It's not me.
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Re: The Games Idea Thread

Postby Admetus » 29 Sep 2015, 14:53:49

Not every one. World's End we chose to leave him alone so he could be lynched in peace.

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Re: The Games Idea Thread

Postby Admetus » 29 Sep 2015, 15:36:46

Dang... I just re-read some days from that World's End game. Wow, such a chatty game. So many pages of detailed plots and traps laid by wolves and humans alike.

Good times.

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Re: The Games Idea Thread

Postby That PJ » 29 Sep 2015, 15:47:50

Admetus wrote:Dang... I just re-read some days from that World's End game. Wow, such a chatty game. So many pages of detailed plots and traps laid by wolves and humans alike.

Good times.

That private forum with Okaros and our mad hijinks are some of my favorite times on this board.
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Re: The Games Idea Thread

Postby 7-zark-7 » 30 Sep 2015, 07:49:25

Okaros wrote:
Admetus wrote:I'm not saying all conversion games are terrible. I'm just saying this is an important difference to keep an eye on.


Yeah, that part remains the same no matter what with conversion games, alas. Unless... You could go inception-style and tag people at level 1 to form the wolf team on level 2, for example. But that's not quite the same thing.


I thought about this for the Zarkowski Funeralception game, but it had is own problems - not the least being the humans would catch on pretty fast on how to find said L2 wolves - there was some discussion of this & it was why I kept stressing this was not a conversion game.

One workaround would be to make level mauls invisible, but it would still be a short list of "who is here that didn't get lynched in their own level"... I'd love to figure out another way to combine inception/conversion.

More in a bit,

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Re: The Games Idea Thread

Postby dferrantino » 30 Sep 2015, 11:48:56

7-zark-7 wrote:
Okaros wrote:
Admetus wrote:I'm not saying all conversion games are terrible. I'm just saying this is an important difference to keep an eye on.


Yeah, that part remains the same no matter what with conversion games, alas. Unless... You could go inception-style and tag people at level 1 to form the wolf team on level 2, for example. But that's not quite the same thing.


I thought about this for the Zarkowski Funeralception game, but it had is own problems - not the least being the humans would catch on pretty fast on how to find said L2 wolves - there was some discussion of this & it was why I kept stressing this was not a conversion game.

One workaround would be to make level mauls invisible, but it would still be a short list of "who is here that didn't get lynched in their own level"... I'd love to figure out another way to combine inception/conversion.

More in a bit,

7z7

Ultimate Showdown was originally supposed to be QuantCeption, but the bolded made it much more complicated than I wanted to deal with. Still toying with the idea but it needs more testing.

Speaking of...

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Re: The Games Idea Thread

Postby Okaros » 30 Sep 2015, 12:16:33

My thinking with Inception-conversion was that you'd have the cult-master as a hidden role on level 1, separate from the Level 1 wolves. While the wolves are mauling people on level 1, the cult master is secretly selecting people so that when they're sent to level 2 they're part of the cult but are still "normal" on Level 1. The conversions stop when Level 1 ends or the cult-master is sent to level 2 (or when some maximum # of conversions happens or something).
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Re: The Games Idea Thread

Postby dferrantino » 30 Sep 2015, 12:23:42

Okaros wrote:My thinking with Inception-conversion was that you'd have the cult-master as a hidden role on level 1, separate from the Level 1 wolves. While the wolves are mauling people on level 1, the cult master is secretly selecting people so that when they're sent to level 2 they're part of the cult but are still "normal" on Level 1. The conversions stop when Level 1 ends or the cult-master is sent to level 2 (or when some maximum # of conversions happens or something).

Ah, so it's not really a conversion game as much as it's the Alpha building his team for level 2. Gameplay would vary significantly based on when the conversions stop, as well as how often he's allowed to "convert". Would likely suffer from being solvable once people figure out who the Alpha is.

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Re: The Games Idea Thread

Postby Okaros » 30 Sep 2015, 12:36:43

dferrantino wrote:Would likely suffer from being solvable once people figure out who the Alpha is.


Only if they're told how the converting/selection was done in the first place. My thought was that death on Level 1 wouldn't reveal the cult leader or the converted, that'd only happen on level 2. For added fun, you could have the converted be added to their subforum the moment they're converted, so that they start coordinating on Level 1 to ensure that the Leader survives as long as possible to convert as many people for level 2. (For even more fun, Level 1 is a "normal" game with multiple hidden cult leaders, setting up a multi-cult game on level 2...)

I guess part of the question to ask/answer is: What makes a conversion game a *conversion* game specifically? If it's the team-switch/betrayal mid-game then there's not really a way around the lack of useful voting history pre-conversion since that's fundamentally the point of the conversion. For me, I think it's more about the leader (or team) picking their teammates over time more than the immediate sense of betrayal when someone magically switches sides.
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Re: The Games Idea Thread

Postby Admetus » 30 Sep 2015, 12:39:06

That's why I thought conversion + team game worked great in CAD's Cultists in the Coop. Voting history might provide hints on team affiliation, and conversion might confuse that, but in the context of a team game it wasn't a deal-breaker.

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Re: The Games Idea Thread

Postby rekard » 01 Oct 2015, 10:02:44

Here's my idea:

Shenanigans.

Thoughts?

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Re: The Games Idea Thread

Postby twdog » 01 Oct 2015, 10:07:47

http://i.imgur.com/oiw0gSt.jpg

Did you have a specific form in mind? Personally, I always like factions within factions
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Re: The Games Idea Thread

Postby Ryvvn » 17 Oct 2015, 23:25:04

Keep Talking and Nobody Explodes, but some of the direction givers are wolves trying to help cause the bomb to blow up!

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Re: The Games Idea Thread

Postby twdog » 18 Oct 2015, 07:52:10

It'd be a 100% win rate for the wolves. Our games always turn into people yelling at each other as the clock ticks down.

That game was obviously made by some brokenhearted developer that thought "If my relationship broke up, then I'll make everyone's relationship brake up"
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Re: The Games Idea Thread

Postby twdog » 30 Oct 2015, 10:05:59

Sorry to keep spamming about this, but I'm going to do it anyway. I’m continuing to mess around with my mapped game concept, and I’d like some feedback on whether this idea actually sounds fun or not.

In the past, I’ve asked people to submit a detailed list of movement and actions, but forget all that; it was tedious and didn’t bring a lot to the table.

First, I’m planning to move this to a lovecraft setting. The city is being undermined and corrupted, and groups of police, adventurers, and academic investigators are all operating in secret with in the city, all trying to advance their own goals.

It will be a team game, and in fluff these teams are alliances of groups that have found common cause. Each player will be the leader of their own party of NPC agents that they can give missions to. Each of these NPCs will have 4 randoms stats: combat, intelligence, stealth, and sanity. It will vary, but the players start with one NPC and could recruit up to 5 others.

No player will have a dedicated special power role, but instead all the powers will be described as “missions” and need a skill check to pass and the players can assign any of the NPCs to try for it. In principle, any NPC could accomplish any mission, but because the NPCs have different stats each NPC is oriented towards different roles. The players themselves could try for a mission as well, if they wanted. NPCs could die or go insane on these missions, so there’s an element of risk.

The players only need to specify in a PM which mission they want each NPC to do, so this should be much easier and simpler than in the past.

These missions will be things like determining which team a player\npc belongs to, manipulating the vote count on a player, spying on other NPCs, sending PMs, killing other NPCs, attack a player, guarding a location, guard a player, search for clues, recruit more NPCs, and marking players for a maul.

The game day will not end until there is a majority of voters, but missions will run every 24 hours. There will be various variables in play for whether a team can maul or not, but the catch is that someone on the team needs to succeed on a “mark player for maul” mission against the target. So you would need to think ahead on who you want to maul. Each team can run multiple “mark for maul” missions per 24 hour cycle. Incidentally, NPCs running spy or guard missions might become aware of the “mark for maul” missions, and the NPCs running “guard a player” missions might be able to thwart it.

There will be locations that might grant benefits or let you recruit more agents. As part of the game rules, I’ll post all possibilities outcomes for each location, so if you or your NPCs see a someone at a location it should actually provide some information.

Lastly, there’s sanity. Aside from all these missions, there’s cultists of the eldar gods in play, and they’ll put monsters into the board every 24 hours. These could kill or drive insane players and NPCs, and insane players\NPCs will suffer all sorts of ... unfortunate ... effects, ranging from losing mission options, to dying off, or even to turn traitor. Monsters will shutdown parts of the map until they’re defeated by running a combat mission on their location. If the monsters occupy a large enough percentage of the board, the cultists win. These cultists would be made up of the dead and at least one living player, depending on how the player numbers break down.

I’m envisioning many small teams instead of few large ones. For instance, if there’s 18 players then it’d be 6 teams of three. I’m planning on allowing pairs of teams to form alliances, and you could have a shared win of two teams. Of course, negotiations would have to happen between the players, with opportunities for backstabbing.
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Re: The Games Idea Thread

Postby rekard » 29 Sep 2016, 13:06:39

Ok. Guys, guys, guys.

Game brainstorm.

Story:
All players are being summoned once a month to an apartment were you will decide who of you will die. Between meetings a "wolf" faction kills another player. Human vs wolves. Humans kill wolves to win. Wolves reach parity to win. Straightforward right?

But, every player has one goal, one power and one secret about someone. The power is proportional to the difficulty of the goal.

And in the end, only one wins.

Thoughts?

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Re: The Games Idea Thread

Postby Ryvvn » 29 Sep 2016, 13:32:46

I want to know all your secrets, rekard.

Honest question, is this game real-time? Because that would be interesting... if this game's not, I'm already thinking I may do something long-term real-time myself!

Seriously, though, it sounds fun; hard to say much more than that without details on what goals/powers/secrets could be and how they'd be used mechanically.

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Re: The Games Idea Thread

Postby Gungnir888 » 29 Sep 2016, 13:55:25

That is something straight out of a character study horror movie. I like it. Balancing all the variables sounds like a chore, but it would be fun to play.

I've been kicking around a concept based on the movie Fallen. If you haven't seen it, its about a demon that passes from one person to another via touch. The wolf would maul somebody, then they lose wolf status and it passes randomly to somebody who voted for them, or used their name in a post, or something along those lines. Exact mechanics would need to be kept secret, and it drastically changes the standard observational tools, but it could be interesting.

The other is a serial killer being driven insane by the clamor of the dead. At some point in the game, they have to stop acting of their own free will, and choose a strategy that somebody in the dead pool posts on the wolf board. It allows more active participation by the dead, and realistically I'd expect most viable strategies to be posted, so the wolf isn't losing too much control.

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Re: The Games Idea Thread

Postby rekard » 29 Sep 2016, 14:29:28

Gungnir888 wrote:That is something straight out of a character study horror movie. I like it. Balancing all the variables sounds like a chore, but it would be fun to play.

I've been kicking around a concept based on the movie Fallen. If you haven't seen it, its about a demon that passes from one person to another via touch. The wolf would maul somebody, then they lose wolf status and it passes randomly to somebody who voted for them, or used their name in a post, or something along those lines. Exact mechanics would need to be kept secret, and it drastically changes the standard observational tools, but it could be interesting.

The other is a serial killer being driven insane by the clamor of the dead. At some point in the game, they have to stop acting of their own free will, and choose a strategy that somebody in the dead pool posts on the wolf board. It allows more active participation by the dead, and realistically I'd expect most viable strategies to be posted, so the wolf isn't losing too much control.


I did something pretty ambitious that most people liked before. It was a chore and tough to balance out but also fun. Check out the Greed Games game that I GMed. It was a team game where people needed to keep other opponent players (sponsors) alive to keep their powers. With more sponsors your power got upgraded. There were daily sponsor prizes. And a team where everyone had a psychopath role and they didn't know it until the inevitable betrayal. But then they ended up unable to kill each other due to their powers.

I had some oversights like not giving a team an informational power and thinking that more offense powers would balance. The game as a whole worked for the most part though and it was really fun. So I have experience with games that need a bit more extreme balancing.

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Re: The Games Idea Thread

Postby rekard » 29 Sep 2016, 14:31:18

Ryvvn wrote:I want to know all your secrets, rekard.

Honest question, is this game real-time? Because that would be interesting... if this game's not, I'm already thinking I may do something long-term real-time myself!

Seriously, though, it sounds fun; hard to say much more than that without details on what goals/powers/secrets could be and how they'd be used mechanically.


That's just the story. Real time in my opinion, only works with highly committed people or people that get forced to do it.

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Re: The Games Idea Thread

Postby Jehos » 29 Sep 2016, 15:06:59

DastardlyOldMan wrote:Check Mortus' Psychiatrist game - he used a sanitarium / imprisonment scenario, where the lynch was really an imprisonment, and the Psychologist could unconvert converted people. The timing of the actions on that game caused it to go a littly hinky - I think the humans imprisoned the seer to keep him safe from conversion, but then he was released and converted at the exact same time, . . . but anyhow, the principle was fairly sound in that one.

Ha, that was my very first wolf game, and I'm the one that did that crazy timing.

Seriously, just lynch me. :mrgreen:
DAMN YOU RICTUS!!!

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Re: The Games Idea Thread

Postby Gungnir888 » 30 Sep 2016, 06:20:59

Link to rekard's game:

http://twg2.thegranddespotoftheuniverse.org/index.php#c12

Impressive twist. I look forward to seeing what you do with this one.

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Re: The Games Idea Thread

Postby The Fairy Catmother » 01 Oct 2016, 20:43:52

Ryvvn wrote:I want to know all your secrets, rekard.

Honest question, is this game real-time? Because that would be interesting... if this game's not, I'm already thinking I may do something long-term real-time myself!

Seriously, though, it sounds fun; hard to say much more than that without details on what goals/powers/secrets could be and how they'd be used mechanically.


Sounds right up your alley, Ryvvn! Can you and rekard co-gm? I bet you already have a bunch of roles in mind...

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Re: The Games Idea Thread

Postby stdio » 17 Feb 2017, 10:21:22

I've got a game scheduled for the start of March, and it's going to be a version 2 of twdog's Aspendale game. I'm posting the revised game here for review for any feedback on major issues I'm missing. I’m probably not going to use a lovecraft theme for this, but for the sake of convenience I’m using the TWG101 terms. So we've still got the timer and two boards, but the main differences from TWG101 are:

  • No conversion faction because the likely player numbers don’t support it, and thus no prisoners' delimmas either
  • On day 0, the wolves will be given the choice of having a mask account or an alpha wolf so they can negotiate with the Dayboard . Their choice will be GM confirmed
  • The wolves or Dayboard letting the timer reach zero results in penalty for their side instead of losing the game
  • Timer decreases are checked at the end of day and end of night
  • Timer starts at 80 and decreases by 3d8, timer also increases by 3d8. Adds some tension on whether you want to take a risk or play it safe.
  • In the day board, people publicly vote as usual, but if they want to extend the timer they send me a PM. This should put the wolves and the Dayboard on more of an equal footing for timer brinkmanship. Voting to increase the timer will always lose a coinflip against voting for a lynch
  • At the start of the game, The Dreamlands have a limited set of options, but the Dayboard can vote to increase The Dreamlands abilities instead of lynching someone. This is intended to prevent the first person(s) on the Dayboard getting all the best options right away. If you want to to increase The Dreamlands abilities, it’s a public vote you make in lieu of a lynch vote.
  • No negative penalties for going to The Dreamlands, aside from not being able to vote\post in other boards
  • The public powers you can pick yourself are eliminated, and all powers are allocated from The Dreamlands. This was a confusing unfamiliar mechanic for most of the players, and few seemed interested in it, plus unexpected game breaking combos could arise
  • Sanity score is eliminated, because it only existed as a check for people spamming the public powers. Also eliminates another unfamiliar mechanic.
  • PMs enabled from the start for all players, but they need to be relayed with me
  • no faction seer
  • no vig unless player count is 18+

thoughts?

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Re: The Games Idea Thread

Postby Okaros » 17 Feb 2017, 11:11:04

stdio wrote:thoughts?


[*]PMs enabled from the start for all players, but they need to be relayed with me


RIP your inbox. :twisted:

(If you're going to route all PMs through you, you will absolutely need limitations on quantity and size of PMs or you're going to get flooded)
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Re: The Games Idea Thread

Postby Jrsthethird » 17 Feb 2017, 14:56:55

In the day board, people publicly vote as usual, but if they want to extend the timer they send me a PM. This should put the wolves and the Dayboard on more of an equal footing for timer brinkmanship. Voting to increase the timer will always lose a coinflip against voting for a lynch


Can you clarify the last sentence? I thought that the timer vote and the lynch vote are independent of one another.

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Re: The Games Idea Thread

Postby Okaros » 17 Feb 2017, 15:09:30

Also you should ban PMs to/from those in the Dreamlands, otherwise the wolves will continue coordinating amongst themselves via PM.
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Re: The Games Idea Thread

Postby stdio » 17 Feb 2017, 15:12:54

Okaros wrote:
stdio wrote:thoughts?


[*]PMs enabled from the start for all players, but they need to be relayed with me


RIP your inbox. :twisted:

(If you're going to route all PMs through you, you will absolutely need limitations on quantity and size of PMs or you're going to get flooded)


I agree, but I think it might be the safest thing. If the dayboard lets the timer hit 0, they might lose the ability to PM at all for a day. So if someone forgets and sends a PM on a no PM day, then I have to deal with fallout from that because potentially there could be some critical information in that PM. So now do I tell the recipient to forget what they read? Do I let everyone else have PMs for the day to maintain balance? Sure, whoever sent it would be apologetic and all, but the damage would be done.

Jrsthethird wrote:
In the day board, people publicly vote as usual, but if they want to extend the timer they send me a PM. This should put the wolves and the Dayboard on more of an equal footing for timer brinkmanship. Voting to increase the timer will always lose a coinflip against voting for a lynch


Can you clarify the last sentence? I thought that the timer vote and the lynch vote are independent of one another.


So in the Aspendale game, the wolves knew whether the dayboard was going to vote for a timer extension but the dayboard did not know what the wolves were voting for, and imho, that was a pretty major contributor to how things went down on day 3.

So the idea of "make a public lynch vote but send a pm extension vote" is so that the wolves won't know with absolute certainty what the dayboard is going to do. If I want to lynch someone, I make a public lynch vote as usual, but if I want to extend the timer I still make that public lynch vote but I then send a PM to the GM saying I actually want to extend the timer instead of lynch. The idea here is for the wolves to be unsure of whether the dayboard will extend or not, just like how the dayboard has no idea whether the wolves will extend or not.

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Re: The Games Idea Thread

Postby stdio » 17 Feb 2017, 15:36:08

Okaros wrote:Also you should ban PMs to/from those in the Dreamlands, otherwise the wolves will continue coordinating amongst themselves via PM.


I feel like the wolves using PMs to coordinate with each other access The Dreamlands and thus circumventing read only board is just going to have to be a necessary evil. I want there to be communications between The Dreamlands and the waking world, but aside from PM I don't see any straightforward way to make that happen. What I really want is for communication to be ambiguous and deniable, and the recipient couldn't entirely trust what they get.

What I'm toying around with doing, is letting people in the waking world PM each other, but people in The Dreamlands can only send, and I'd anonymize the sender and publicly post in The Dreamlands whatever I send. But I'm trying to avoid too many cumbersome rules, and if I put a bunch of conditions on PMs, then people are likely to get confused and I'm likely to make a mistake. So I'm not entirely sure if it's worth the extra complication.

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Re: The Games Idea Thread

Postby Clearasday » 17 Feb 2017, 17:10:20

Okaros wrote:
stdio wrote:thoughts?


[*]PMs enabled from the start for all players, but they need to be relayed with me


RIP your inbox. :twisted:

(If you're going to route all PMs through you, you will absolutely need limitations on quantity and size of PMs or you're going to get flooded)

Okaros is right, this led to you guys literally breaking CAD due to too many PMs in one of my games.
THERE IS NO JUSTICE, THERE IS JUST CLEARASDAY.

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Re: The Games Idea Thread

Postby Clearasday » 17 Feb 2017, 17:21:11

If I can just randomly gush on the subject of PMs I actually thought the best use of managing them so far was the my little pony game where we had to PM through the pets. It was by far my favourite because 1) PMs could easily be intercepted and passed on 2) at the same time communication was rife and deals were being made everywhere 3) as the PM carriers died everyone became more desperate 4) the GM didn't have to put up with hundreds of PMs per second
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Re: The Games Idea Thread

Postby Jrsthethird » 17 Feb 2017, 19:05:14

That's my mistake; I forgot that the vote to extend was in lieu of the lynch. There will be an unintended consequence of the day's vote leader being unknown throughout the thread, which may make things like a last minute seer reveal much more difficult to correctly accomplish, depending on how the extend voters spread their fake Day votes.

(Edit - or maybe it is intended. Not my place to speak on your game's vision!)

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Re: The Games Idea Thread

Postby stdio » 17 Feb 2017, 19:19:25

Jrsthethird wrote: There will be an unintended consequence of the day's vote leader being unknown throughout the thread, which may make things like a last minute seer reveal much more difficult to correctly accomplish, depending on how the extend voters spread their fake Day votes.

(Edit - or maybe it is intended. Not my place to speak on your game's vision!)


actually, I hadn't thought of that ... hmmm, I'll think this over. I suppose the question is, is it worse for the humans for people to be able to hide their votes for a day, or is it worse for the wolves to know if they're voting for an extension or not? Even in a regular game, people can always change their votes even seconds before the clock runs out, so it's not like votes we see during the day are set in stone anyway. It'll probably be ok; I'm going to reveal how people actually voted in the next morning, so there will still be analysis to work with. If you make a suspicious vote with timer extension, you'll have to explain it the next day.

There won't be a faction seer, incidentally. So last minute reveals won't be an issue, but I hadn't considered the impact of public voting being untrustworthy vs. last minute reveals or tight races. So, uh, I guess this why I want to post this here for review before we got started

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Re: The Games Idea Thread

Postby Okaros » 17 Feb 2017, 20:04:47

Maybe make a separate vote to either empower the Dreamlands or extend the day? i.e. you're voting based on where to send the metaphysical energy or something? That frees up the lynch to be reliable.
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Re: The Games Idea Thread

Postby stdio » 18 Feb 2017, 11:43:47

Okaros wrote:Maybe make a separate vote to either empower the Dreamlands or extend the day? i.e. you're voting based on where to send the metaphysical energy or something? That frees up the lynch to be reliable.


Ok, that might work. You could make the public vote be about lynchs as usual, but the private vote be about keeping the dreamlands powered or not.

How about this:

public vote -> I want to lynch whoever
private vote -> I want to power dreamlands OR I want to extend timer

Of course, I'd reveal the private voting results the next day.

What I'm thinking is that if The Dreamlands starts the game with limited options, and every day you power The Dreamlands, it gets more powerful every day it's enabled, but it gets weaker every time the players vote to extend the timer instead. If both wolves and the dayboard extend on the same day/night cycle, it'd shutdown completely until it was powered back up.

---

My only real concern here is that now I'd be asking people to make two votes per day, and one of them as a PM. We have different levels of player engagement here; some people are super involved and love to do analysis and theory crafting, but other people aren't going to give you much more than a single one word vote post*. It's not always the same people either, how much time and effort you can put into the game is dependent on what's going on in your life at the moment.

I could have a pile of rules and required actions, and some people would love an intricate game like that, but it'd be very off putting for others. Because of variable levels of player involvements, I've tried to make it so that all this extra stuff about PMs, abilities in the Dreamlands, timers, etc ... is basically optional. If you only have time to pop in near the end of day and make a throwaway vote then you can still play.

I guess ultimately, I don't think requiring the players to make one public vote and one private vote, both of which could be just a one word vote, is asking all that much. But I really don't want to add a lot more mandatory participation requirements then that, tbh.

*this doesn't count San who only does a one post per day, but is obviously doing analysis because if he makes a second post of the day it inevitably dooms the wolves.


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