The Games Idea Thread

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Re: The Games Idea Thread

Postby Hellheart » 12 Sep 2013, 09:26:54

Iron Clad Burrito wrote:...I smell so many levels of butthurt coming out of that...

Man, you guys have no sense of humor :lol:

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Re: The Games Idea Thread

Postby Omega » 12 Sep 2013, 09:28:43

twdog wrote:
Omega wrote:
twdog wrote:
sphenodont wrote:
Omega wrote:The meta game from TWG2 was somewhat similar to that idea...


Yeah, we went that route with the Forum game because we didn't want to step on any toes.

(And if we stepped on twdog's toes, it's because we were just stamping out the vampire bats that were nibbling on them.)



I don't know if you even can step on my toes anymore in this group; I've flanderized the hell out of myself here. I've unintentionally turned myself into "the paranoid guy that's terrified of vampires." I just roll with it now, because I find it amusing.


Don't forget about being our resident Master of Baiting in the Server Room!



That wasn't my fault! Marisa isn't even my type!


Sure she isn't.

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Re: The Games Idea Thread

Postby twdog » 12 Sep 2013, 09:35:58

Hell no she isn't!

Now, Rainbow Dash on the other hand .... :eyebrow:






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Re: The Games Idea Thread

Postby RaveBomb » 12 Sep 2013, 11:58:53

I have some ideas about the games...


Wait, what are we talking about?
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Re: The Games Idea Thread

Postby Ryvvn » 12 Sep 2013, 21:37:31

twdog wrote:I don't know if you even can step on my toes anymore in this group; I've flanderized the hell out of myself here. I've unintentionally turned myself into "the paranoid guy that's terrified of vampires." I just roll with it now, because I find it amusing.

You might not want to look at the name of the most recently registered user....

(it's another friend of mine by the way)

And to bring things somewhat back to topic:
I've been mulling the idea of a pokemon inspired variant, sort of an everyone's special game but without actual lynches/mauls. Everyone chooses a pokemon (probably just stick to generation one for ease, and cause it's the best!) and then it is publicly known that they have at least one attack of that elemental type. Then players secretly PM the GM (assumedly me) to choose a secondary ability from a publicly displayed list, any number of players may choose same ability; and finally players are given a random third ability from either that same list or a secret one (undecided on that yet).

Thinking the game would be played in battle selection as days and resolutions as nights. Each day a player may select any other player to battle, which must be accepted by opponent; any non-selected players will be randomly assigned a battle opponent among any other non-selected. Players all PM their order of abilities for the night, which I then calculate ability faceoffs to determine effects and winner. Starting on Day 2, players may openly skirmish with one other player per day in the thread, basically stating a name and one ability to use; selected player must use an ability to retaliate or take the hit/effect. Figure each player would start with 100hp and be eliminated from the game when that amount reaches zero.

The wolves would obviously be assigned to Team Rocket, and their goal would be standard of reaching parity by knocking out enough of the (human) wild pokemon.

Just an idea I've been very loosely noodling with. Any thoughts, suggestions on what I've come up with so far?

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Re: The Games Idea Thread

Postby Omega » 12 Sep 2013, 21:50:27

And so it begins continues.

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Re: The Games Idea Thread

Postby Hellheart » 12 Sep 2013, 22:09:53

Ryvvn wrote:You might not wan

Thinking the game would be played in battle selection as days and resolutions as nights. Each day a player may select any other player to battle, which must be accepted by opponent; any non-selected players will be randomly assigned a battle opponent among any other non-selected. Players all PM their order of abilities for the night, which I then calculate ability faceoffs to determine effects and winner. Starting on Day 2, players may openly skirmish with one other player per day in the thread, basically stating a name and one ability to use; selected player must use an ability to retaliate or take the hit/effect. Figure each player would start with 100hp and be eliminated from the game when that amount reaches zero.

The wolves would obviously be assigned to Team Rocket, and their goal would be standard of reaching parity by knocking out enough of the (human) wild pokemon.

Just an idea I've been very loosely noodling with. Any thoughts, suggestions on what I've come up with so far?

The players pair off every day, and so most likely everybody is losing HP slowly over time. Team Rocket can't really have an advantage in this area because it'd be too obvious (everyone's losing HP at generally the same rate except for 8 guys). So openly challenging people would be the only way for them to really get an advantage, but if this is the case then why would anyone else battle during the day? Just wait until the wolves get desperate and pick them off as they try to do something useful before they croak.

With this setup there's also no vote history to go on, and there's very few tells in the battles themselves (because most of the challenges will be based on type matchups). It doesn't feel like there's much opportunity to get wolfy tells, and it might just come down to "how many of the best battlers are humans and how many are wolves?"

I think TWG works best with a voting system - for example, the players could vote on people and the pokemon with the two highest totals battle...to the death. Team Rocket then has the opportunity to maul the other one, or pass on the maul opportunity - obviously if the surviving pokemon is a wolf there's not going to be a maul, but they could also refuse to maul humans to cast doubt on them. I don't really like that as the actual mechanic unless HP recovers at least somewhat every day, but I think that makes more sense than having everybody pair off.

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Re: The Games Idea Thread

Postby Hellheart » 12 Sep 2013, 23:42:08

Okay, I've given this some further thought. If you want to run a battle-based pokemon-themed game, I think it would be best to have competing teams rather than humans vs. wolves. You have two systems you need to develop - the team system and the battle system - and both are more or less independent from each other. Because of this, it's easiest to work out the team framework first, then the battle framework, then flesh out portions of each in turn based on the way the other is developing.

[+] Suggestions
Team System

This is just a suggestion of a team system, there's probably dozens of ways to do this.

Players are divided evenly into at least 4 teams, and get access to their team forum, before pokemon are chosen. Players can freely choose their pokemon - but they do it secretly so there can be duplicates - and with 15 types there's probably going to be some discussion involved. Each pokemon comes with a move that matches its type (or one of its types), and as you mentioned players can choose a second move. I don't think the 3rd move should be assigned without player input; perhaps give them a choose between 3 TM moves? You could do interesting things at the beginning of some (or all) days like give players the option of using a random TM to replace an ability, or they could have those abilities locked in after startup.

Each team is assigned another team to battle in a rotating order (Team A plays Team B, then C, then D; D plays C, B, then A; etc.) Both teams nominate a player that will battle the nominee from the other team, and those players PM a series of moves to the GM before EOD. The GM crunches the numbers, then summarizes the results at the beginning of the following day. Each team has a seer ability that's independent of the players, which they can use to learn the identity of another player's pokemon and at least some of the moveset. There's a lot of specifics to be hashed out from here - how many rounds will the battle last, will you allow type-based conditionals in the PM'd moveset, will (a very small amount of) HP recover each day or will players have a limited number of potions, will you allow a single pokemon substitution conditional if there's a bad type matchup, etc. All of those, and probably more, are based on how complex your battle system will be and how long you think the game should last.

Battle System

The Battle System runs on your side, so you should have detailed tables where you just plug in the details of the pokemon and run each move in turn. The number-crunching predictive nature of competitive pokemon battling won't apply here for most of the game because teams have to predict what pokemon they'll be up against; that said, players should know the way the battle system plays out and how any stats or types factor in. They should not know the actual formulas, but they should be able to make a ballpark guess as to how much damage Move A would do as compared to Move B for a given pair of pokemon.

There are some specific facets of the battle system that I feel should be in there no matter what, although the formulas involved should be tweaked.

  • Type Weaknesses and Resistances should apply, although the damage increase/reduction might be weaker than in the games.
  • STAB should be implemented unless you're not implementing dual-type Pokemon
  • Pokemon should not be able to learn moves from a type they're weak against. No other moveset restrictions should apply, although TM availability can (and probably should) be based on the specific pokemon involved.
  • Some of the elemental types should be changed on certain pokemon. At least 2 of the Ghost types should have the Poison secondary type removed or replaced, unless you want to remove Psychic pokemon altogether.
  • The primary and secondary moves should be fairly homogenous across the types, something that was definitely not true in Gen 1. Elemental types that have a favorable weakness/resistance setup may have slightly weaker moves.
  • TM moves can be a mix between powerful straightforward attacks (Flamethrower) and moves with special properties (Focus Punch, static % to hit moves, etc)

This leaves you with a daunting range of decisions, some of which I'll outline below:

  • Will you implement stats, and if so to what extent?
    • If you do implement some stats, how will you use them to differentiate between pokemon of the same elemental type?
    • If you use Defense, will you use the generic Gen 1 defense stat or will you break it up into Physical Defense and Special Defense like in the later Gens?
    • Based on your decision above, will you include both Physical and Special moves of varying levels of power for each elemental type? They shouldn't be interchangeable to encourage some tradeoffs, so how would you balance that?
    • Can you develop working formulas that create reasonable approximations of the results one would see in the game?
    • Are there ways that players might try to abuse the moveset differences, and will this be a weak enough advantage to be counterbalanced by teams that load up on types/moves that are strong against that type?
  • Will you implement status ailments? How will you balance their effects based on the number of rounds each day's battle will go? Will they persist between battles? Will the secondary effects (-Str Burn, -Spd Para, Damage stack Pois) also be implemented?
  • How will you balance the strength of some moves versus others? Will you simply tier the damage off between 1st, 2nd, and 3rd skills? Would it make sense to implement PP, and to have moves never regain PP to give players some really difficult choices?

Now your choices here will reflect back upon the team system. Based on the way your system runs, does it make more sense to have a set number of rounds or a fight to the death? Will lingering status effects - if you implement them at all - make afflicted pokemon too weak, and can you counterbalance that by having them wear off after a certain number of days? Will you restrict moveset conditionals to the type of the pokemon being faced, or will you allow players to create further conditionals based on whether the target pokemon has stronger physical or special defense?

You get the idea :P

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Re: The Games Idea Thread

Postby twdog » 13 Sep 2013, 07:56:57

It's important to remember that TWG is a game that at it's core is about information disparity and a ticking clock. The player only have a certain number of days to figure out who is wolf and who is human before they lose. The roles only really amount to ways to speed (vig) or slow (GA) that clock. Therefore, the game needs the wolves to be able to maul their pick (almost) every night to keep the clock ticking, and the humans need to be able to gain enough information to find the wolves before the clock runs out.

The game isn't setup for combat. That can happen to a degree, but it isn't a combat first game. The main human question should be, how do I gain more information before the clock runs out, not how to win against my opponent. This is one of my issues with team games; it's not overly important to figure out who's on which team because you're hostile to every team.

Now, all that said ... I do like you're idea, but like Hellheart said maybe it shouldn't be a wolf game. I feel that these boards and this group could support a non-TWG forum based game with a secret team(s) and combat mechanics like you're discussing. Voting to setup certain "high stakes" or whatever matches could work well, and maybe a secret evil team could cheat and put the players of their choosing in the special match. I'm not sure exactly ... I'm just saying if you're looking to run that sort of game (and I'd be interested in playing in it) you probably want to dump or heavily modify the lynch\maul\parity mechanics.
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Re: The Games Idea Thread

Postby twdog » 13 Sep 2013, 08:05:08

FWIW, I do like playing here because it has relatively low time commitments. Generally speaking, I can just check in during the day as I have time, instead of blocking out certain nights or whatever which usually doesn't work for me. Even with EOD, I don't necessarily need to be there. That's the main reason I've never joined any of the Ars' online groups except this one.

Games like this that I can check in on as I have time work a lot better for me. I've toyed around with running a quick lightweight team based combat PvP RPG here, but I don't know if anyone would be interested in something like that. It's the TWG board after all. I'm just saying that I'm interested in your game idea, even though I don't think it works as TWG per se.
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Re: The Games Idea Thread

Postby twdog » 13 Sep 2013, 08:07:16

Ryvvn wrote:
twdog wrote:I don't know if you even can step on my toes anymore in this group; I've flanderized the hell out of myself here. I've unintentionally turned myself into "the paranoid guy that's terrified of vampires." I just roll with it now, because I find it amusing.

You might not want to look at the name of the most recently registered user....

(it's another friend of mine by the way)


nitestorm has his irrational Ozy obsession, now I can have an irrational obsession too! Hooray!





also, post count ++
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Re: The Games Idea Thread

Postby Okaros » 13 Sep 2013, 08:11:15

The Pokemon Battle idea sounds vaguely reminiscient of TWG XLVIII: Ponies with Guns, which featured high-noon dueling in addition to the lynch.
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Re: The Games Idea Thread

Postby Ionitor » 13 Sep 2013, 08:14:58

I mostly agree with twdog, in that I think the concept may get "too far" from TWG. In my mind, the two core features of TWG are the lynch and information disparity*. Without a somewhat democratic way to collectively (and generally effectively) eliminate someone, the game (as we play it) gets very frustrating. In your case, it sounds like only one person would be able to fight a suspected wolf on a given day, which means that collective action is very difficult.


*I think the team games still fit fairly nicely into the mold, though I'm not sure we've had one yet that had a super-satisfying "end game".

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Re: The Games Idea Thread

Postby twdog » 13 Sep 2013, 08:22:48

Okaros wrote:The Pokemon Battle idea sounds vaguely reminiscient of TWG XLVIII: Ponies with Guns, which featured high-noon dueling in addition to the lynch.



I enjoyed that game. However, as a wolf, we had a lot of problems because we couldn't reliably maul.
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Re: The Games Idea Thread

Postby Ryvvn » 13 Sep 2013, 09:04:29

Hey thanks for all the input guys (especially Hellheart, wow dude, pretty sure you've put more thought into this in a few hours than I have at all :lol: )

I guess I'd have to decide if I wanted to just skin TWG with Pokemon or create an entirely different game system which might not work here. To be honest, the idea just sort of sprang up in my head after playing DOM's wonderfully themed Discworld game (with its elemental mechanics) and then people talking about the new Pokemans coming out (which I sadly lack the hardware to play). I just figured the two could be smashed together somehow but clearly haven't thought it through enough.

If one of you number crunchers wanted to just take the idea and run with it, feel free (I call Jigglypuff though!); otherwise, I'll come back to you when I have a better idea what should be done with this after taking all your advice into account.

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Re: The Games Idea Thread

Postby twdog » 13 Sep 2013, 09:13:48

Ryvvn wrote:Hey thanks for all the input guys (especially Hellheart, wow dude, pretty sure you've put more thought into this in a few hours than I have at all :lol: )

I guess I'd have to decide if I wanted to just skin TWG with Pokemon or create an entirely different game system which might not work here. To be honest, the idea just sort of sprang up in my head after playing DOM's wonderfully themed Discworld game (with its elemental mechanics) and then people talking about the new Pokemans coming out (which I sadly lack the hardware to play). I just figured the two could be smashed together somehow but clearly haven't thought it through enough.

If one of you number crunchers wanted to just take the idea and run with it, feel free (I call Jigglypuff though!); otherwise, I'll come back to you when I have a better idea what should be done with this after taking all your advice into account.


I do like the idea, fwiw, and I'd be up for a forum based implementation. Just not sure to what extent you want to do a reskin.

Variant game mechanics fitting in with the core of the game is on my mind right now, because I'm dealing with something similar. At the moment, I'm working out a System Shock themed game incorporating most of the mechanics of the Innsmouth game. I'd like to have hostile NPC hybrids running around that the players would have to fight or avoid, but I'm not getting it to work quiet right.
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Re: The Games Idea Thread

Postby Omega » 13 Sep 2013, 09:24:09

twdog wrote:
Variant game mechanics fitting in with the core of the game is on my mind right now, because I'm dealing with something similar. At the moment, I'm working out a System Shock themed game incorporating most of the mechanics of the Innsmouth game. I'd like to have hostile NPC hybrids running around that the players would have to fight or avoid, but I'm not getting it to work quiet right.


This. Yes. This is good.

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Re: The Games Idea Thread

Postby twdog » 13 Sep 2013, 10:14:42

I'm looking forward to posting they see you ... run ... RUN! in the wolf board every five minutes :twisted:



On the one hand, I like the idea of players getting killed so that the tension and paranoia get amped up. On the other hand, if we have have players getting killed by NPCs every night in addition to mauls and lynches we're going to hit parity\wolf extinction fast and vote analysis would get all screwed up. I'm leaning towards wounding players with vote penalties.

The other issue, is that is if getting killed\wounded is a very serious danger, the players would be inclined to focus on that to the detriment of the core game. Especially in combination with plots and quests.

The day thread would be like:

Ok everyone, how many weapons do we have and what condition are they in? Right ... we'll have 3 of us try to storm Cargo Bay 2 to get the key, and remember we need some players covering the engineering security room ... Of course, we also need to recover the toxins in hydro but we don't have the numbers for that ... maybe someone can dash to an upgrade station to kick up their gun skill and we can try for it tomorrow? Do we know if there's any monkeys in that sector? Oh ... I suppose we should lynch someone, umm ... I don't know ... just pick someone randomly. Anyway, back to tonight ... maybe one us with tech skills can hack the force field in the crew sector, and then we'll ....
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Re: The Games Idea Thread

Postby rekard » 13 Sep 2013, 18:08:24

Ionitor wrote:I mostly agree with twdog, in that I think the concept may get "too far" from TWG. In my mind, the two core features of TWG are the lynch and information disparity*. Without a somewhat democratic way to collectively (and generally effectively) eliminate someone, the game (as we play it) gets very frustrating. In your case, it sounds like only one person would be able to fight a suspected wolf on a given day, which means that collective action is very difficult.


*I think the team games still fit fairly nicely into the mold, though I'm not sure we've had one yet that had a super-satisfying "end game".


Not to stroke my ego, but I think the Greed game had an exciting endgame.

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Re: The Games Idea Thread

Postby Iron Clad Burrito » 13 Sep 2013, 18:09:18

rekard wrote:
Ionitor wrote:I mostly agree with twdog, in that I think the concept may get "too far" from TWG. In my mind, the two core features of TWG are the lynch and information disparity*. Without a somewhat democratic way to collectively (and generally effectively) eliminate someone, the game (as we play it) gets very frustrating. In your case, it sounds like only one person would be able to fight a suspected wolf on a given day, which means that collective action is very difficult.


*I think the team games still fit fairly nicely into the mold, though I'm not sure we've had one yet that had a super-satisfying "end game".


Not to stroke my ego, but I think the Greed game had an exciting endgame.


That one had an exciting middle, when people were failing miserably at backstabbing one another. :)

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Re: The Games Idea Thread

Postby rekard » 13 Sep 2013, 18:41:41

Yeah. Or the vigilante misses from Ionitor. That a gloriously epic failed backstab.

"I VIG YOU!"

*fails*

*awkward silence*

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Re: The Games Idea Thread

Postby Ionitor » 14 Sep 2013, 03:19:59

It was an exciting ending (and hilarious middle), but I'm not sure it was completely satisfying. What I mean is that, in my mind, everyone still playing should feel like they have a path to victory, even if it's not likely, and that they have some way to get a hint at that path. CAD's second mayhem game may have come closest, and I'm going off vague memories in both cases and may admittedly be wrong, but I thought there were at least a few people that were forced to fumble around pretty blindly, or had effectively no chance of winning.

Not that I'm complaining in either case. They were both fun; it's just something I've thought about. My next game (not anytime soon) may be a team game, since they have some balancing advantages.

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Re: The Games Idea Thread

Postby Rictus » 17 Sep 2013, 12:38:30

I will say that the Inception game was one of my most enjoyable, theme wise. Although it had a slight problem where the wolves couldn't maul.





Actually, I had forgotten that the only way to win way to lynch the GM. So yeah, a minor issue or two.




Actually, the whole thing was a flaming train wreck barreling down the track over a cliff that dumps into a volcano.

And it was glorious. ++, would play again.
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Re: The Games Idea Thread

Postby Ionitor » 17 Sep 2013, 13:10:03

I gave the infiltrators at least 2 mauls and a conversion. Sure, the conversion was completely defective, and one of the mauls could only take me out, but that's not my fault.

Wait, I suppose it is. ;)

I actually think the balance was about right on that game; the biggest problem as far as that goes was that the various vigs had crazy-awesome aim. I would definitely put the ending in the "not completely satisfying" category, admittedly. I think the infiltrators would have had a pretty good shot of winning with less vig shots (though, if I was somehow running the same game, I would probably put some kind of stronger warning about avoiding attention in the first couple of days).

I think the idea of maul-less games are interesting, though I expect they will generally be very hard to balance. At the very least, you have to ensure that there is little-to-no possibility of creating "confirmed" humans, and the wolves need some way to influence kills in a less public manner. Both of those are solvable problems, though.

My next game will certainly not go down that path. At the moment, what's lurking in my mind is a multi-team variant that is reminiscent of DOM's Discworld game, in that players will be able to influence how effective other people's powers are. While I doubt the setup will be open, it will be much less... surprising than my last game. It will be a sequel, though. Of course, everybody's game is a sequel to mine...

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Re: The Games Idea Thread

Postby Hellheart » 18 Sep 2013, 15:56:43

I'm working on fleshing out the Phoenix Wright TWG idea - I have pretty much everything defined including the roles and how things will play out, and now I'm working on as much balancing as I can. I still need to create flavor text for most of the roles, and I want to have an example Trial-Turnabout Phase in there somewhere.

I cannot GM any game, so once I'm satisfied I'll post the full set of details and see if somebody wants to retool and run with it. I refuse to GM because the only thing I'm truly consistent about is that I'm never consistent with anything, and I'm not going to GM a game if I can't trust myself to keep up with it.

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Re: The Games Idea Thread

Postby rekard » 19 Sep 2013, 08:41:21

I could steal that ruleset but I'm trying to make the next game less complex.

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Re: The Games Idea Thread

Postby Hellheart » 19 Sep 2013, 22:14:52

rekard wrote:I could steal that ruleset but I'm trying to make the next game less complex.

I think the only real complexity here - other than little twists and specific rules for some roles - comes from the Trial/Turnabout Phase. Only 3 people participate in that phase, however - the GM, the Attorney, and the Prosecutor - and all of those roles are volunteered for since the Attorney and Prosecutor roles rely very heavily on analysis and are RP-enforced. The Trial Phase is run in its own thread, which is created after EOD, and shouldn't run much longer than an hour at most.

I'm trying to make things as interesting for the Attorney and Prosecutor as possible, since by design they cannot interact with the rest of the players. They can freely PM each other, and the selection of the Defendant and Witness (in Turnabout) can take a lot of thought and craftiness. The win conditions in their little side-game keep things very competitive between them, and the winner gets an additional every-trial, no drawback power that will mess with their counterpart's RP rhythm in addition to making it easier to win the Trial phase for the remainder of the game.

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Re: The Games Idea Thread

Postby stigmata » 20 Sep 2013, 13:41:49

Random thought while I was at work tonight. No flesh on these bones, but I'll keep thinking about it.

DEFCON-1 theme. Players select a real or fictional world leader to run their seat at the United Nations during an escalating nuclear crisis. Day 1 starts at DEFCON-5, with only lynch/mauls available and no special powers at all. Each time a Rogue State (wolf) is sanctioned (lynched), the doomsday clock ticks and the DEFCON level approaches 1. Each level sees slightly increasing prevalence of powers until eventually Everyone's Special and fighting against time until Everyone's Special And Also Dead.

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Re: The Games Idea Thread

Postby Hellheart » 07 Oct 2013, 02:14:03

This post will end with a really long spoiler detailing my vision of the Phoenix Wright TWG (sans some power roles that have less of an impact than the listed ones). Since I flat out refuse to GM, if anybody wants to pick this up they can obviously modify it any way they choose. I don't include a sample set of decisions/considerations that would play into the choices during the Trial Phase, but could do so upon request whenever I feel like getting around to it. I won't even try to make a sample Trial Phase because I have no idea how people will RP the characters.

This variant seems way more complicated than it actually is - the Day thread plays out as normal, although all votes are cast in secret. Players have multiple votes and have restrictions on whom they can vote for, but that's the only additional wrinkle for them. Most of the rules deal with the Trial Phase, which makes sense for what ends up being a game-within-a-game. "Flow of the Game" is actually the only section that involves all of the players...and that is a tiny section.

There's some kinks that need to be worked out: when and how power votes should be shown, something to counterbalance Diego, and all of the numbers are sheer guesses. Diego must be in the game because the Attorney depends heavily on the Fey's visions to counterbalance the Prosecutor's guilty vote information advantage; an alternative way to play this out is to give the Attorney his own Seer power (via Pearl) and simply remove Diego. PM's should be limited or banned because there is a Seer, but I'm not about to propose how to go about doing that.

I love how many aspects of the design encourage deception and prediction, particularly in the sub-game with the Prosecutor and Attorney. If these aspects are not obvious on reflection, I can explain some of them.

The player selection for the Prosecutor and Attorney is crucial to the success and unique flavor of this variant, and both roles should have at least one backup player.

[+] Phoenix Wright TWG
The Court
The Prosecutor and Attorney have personal win conditions. The first player to meet his win conditions is the winner of the sub-game, and gains an additional Trial Phase power. The game continues as normal.

The Prosecutor and the Attorney cannot be Vigged, voted for, or murdered. They have read-only access to the Day forum and full access to the Trial forum. They can neither send nor receive PM's from the other players, although they are free to PM each other and the Dead thread via the GM. They are, for all intents and purposes, playing an entirely different game based on their personal reads from the posts and actions in the Day thread.


The Judge – GM
The Judge breaks all ties. He can either choose the winner randomly, or he can choose based on the player that built the better case (through evidence RP).

The Prosecutor (Player's Choice) – RP ENFORCED
Players volunteer for this role; one will be chosen from that list by the GM.

Victory Condition: The Prosecutor wins if more than 1/3 of the original group of players are pronounced "Guilty" and sentenced to death. The Fey counts as 3 players for the purpose of this tally.

Special Power: Crooked Witness
The Prosecutor can choose to invoke this power (via a PM to the GM) when he chooses the Defendant. This power adds 2 guilty votes to that player's tally. If the Attorney still wins, then the Attorney will be PM'd the guilty vote tally for all the players that voted for the Defendant when he chooses the Witness for the Turnabout phase.

Victory Power: The Perfect Case
Once per day, during the Trial Phase, the Prosecutor can take the piece of innocence evidence just presented by the Attorney and twist it to show how it actually is evidence of guilt, effectively flipping one vote from innocent to guilty. The Attorney is forced to backtrack and take another route with his RP, which can be...inconvenient ;)

The Attorney (Phoenix Wright) – RP ENFORCED
Players volunteer for this role; one will be chosen from that list by the GM.

The Attorney knows the identify of the Fey, and is CC'd on her Seer results.

Victory Condition: The Attorney wins if more than half of the wolves are sentenced to death after the Turnabout phase. It does not matter if the wolf dies because the Turnabout portion of the trial succeeds or fails; if a wolf Defendant dies after a "failed" Turnabout event (which may be purposely lost more often than not), it counts towards this victory condition.

A failed Bluff counts against this victory condition, even if it results in the death of a wolf. An additional wolf must be killed for every 2 failed Bluffs.

Special Power: Bluff
At the beginning of the Trial, the Attorney can publicly announce that he will attempt a Bluff. This is the only time he can invoke this power. The Trial continues as normal, but at the end of the Trial (regardless of which player wins) the Judge will reveal whether any of the guilty votes were the result of Forge Evidence. If any of the evidence was forged, the Attorney picks a Witness for Turnabout. If the Attorney had won the Trial Phase, the Witness is immediately sentenced to death; if the Attorney had lost the Trial Phase, the Turnabout portion proceeds as normal.

If none of the evidence was forged, the Defendant is sentenced to death even if the Attorney wins the Trial.

Victory Power: Valid Conjecture
Once per day, during the Trial Phase, the Attorney can give an alternate explanation for the murder that accounts for all of the evidence already presented. This explanation functions as two additional innocence votes, and the prosecutor must treat that explanation as true no matter how outlandish it actually is ;)

The Wolves
The Wolves are members of organized crime, with a Don that functions as both a Pack Alpha and Handsome Devil. They will get the same partial list of players at the start of the day, and they follow the same voting process as the Humans do. The Wolves know each other, have their own forum, and murder somebody every night.

Every Wolf can individually choose to Forge Evidence to cast a guilty vote for one or more players that are not on their partial list. They must clearly indicate those players in their voting PM since the GM has more than enough on his plate as it is.

Flow of the Game
At the beginning of the day, the GM will summarize the results of the previous day's trial, reveal the names and roles of the players that died, state the cause of death for the previous day's murder, list the players that cast innocence votes for the previous day's Defendant, and present the full list of guilty votes as a traditional lynch vote list . The list of innocence votes is kept hidden except for Detective Skye, who will get the list via PM. Every player will then get a PM from the GM with a partial list of players; this list is randomly determined for each person individually.

Each player must send a voting PM to the GM before EOD. They can cast guilty votes for up to 3 players and innocence votes for up to 2 players. Players can only cast guilty votes for names on their partial list, but can cast innocence votes for any living player. "No vote" is a valid vote for either or both of these.

At EOD, the GM will tally up the guilty votes and PM that list to the Prosecutor, which begins the Trial Phase.

The Trial Phase
This occurs in its own forum (Trial 1, Trial 2, etc). Each Trial thread is created after EOD and is locked after a player is sentenced to death. The GM can opt to leave the Day thread open until the Trial concludes so that the players have somewhere to comment. Only the GM, Attorney, and Prosecutor can post in the Trial thread; all other players have read-only access.

There are 3 steps that must be taken before the actual trial:
  • 1) The Prosecutor chooses a Defendant by announcing him in the thread and PM's the GM if he wishes to use a Crooked Witness.
    • The player with the most guilty votes is automatically chosen if the Prosecutor is unavailable.
    • If either of the players are unavailable, the GM should either RP the absent role or just narrate the Trial Phase.
  • 2) The Attorney is PM'd the innocence votes for the Defendant.
  • 3) The Attorney states whether he will Bluff in the Trial thread and the Trial begins.

Each vote represents a post in the Trial thread. Each post must include a new piece of evidence, but can otherwise focus on anything else that may be relevant (ie, if a post is simply a rebuttal of the previous post, the evidence can be introduced as an afterthought). Victory Powers can be used at any point in the Trial Phase.

The Prosecution's first post should be a Gumshoe Infodump that provides enough of the setting to help the RP and presents some damning piece of evidence. The Attorney and Prosecution then alternate posts until one of them runs out of evidence, which ends the Trial Phase.

If the Attorney chose to Bluff, this is when the GM will reveal whether any of the votes were the result of Forge Evidence. If the Prosecution wins, the Judge finds the Defendant "Guilty," sentences him to death (barring a successful Bluff), and closes the Trial thread; if the Attorney wins, the Turnabout Phase begins and the trial continues.

The Turnabout Phase
3 steps must be taken before the Turnabout Phase can begin:
  • 1) The GM publicly states the names of the players that voted for the Defendant.
  • 2) The Attorney publicly accuses one of them ("the Witness"). The Attorney does not have the guilty vote tally, so this is a blind choice.
  • 3) The Attorney is PM'd the guilty votes for the Witness, and the Prosecutor is PM'd the Innocence votes for the Witness.

This Phase plays out in reverse – the Attorney begins by describing how the Witness committed the murder and framed the Defendant, and the players once again alternate posts.

If the Attorney wins, then the Judge finds the Defendant "Not Guilty" and sentences the Witness to death. If the Prosecutor wins, then the Judge finds the Defendant "Guilty" and sentences them to death. Either way, the Trial thread is closed and the next day begins whenever the GM is ready.

Partial Power Roles List
  • The Fey is the Human Seer. Her results are CC'd to the Attorney.
  • Diego Armando will protect the Fey from being murdered. This is an unlimited passive ability. He knows the identity of the Fey.
  • Detective Gumshoe removes 2 guilty votes from a player, which will appear as negative Power Votes in the full tally
  • Detective Skye is PM'd the full innocence vote tally at the start of the day. She casts up to 6 innocence votes; she can stack up to 3 votes on one player, but the additional 1 or 2 votes will be listed as Power Votes if he becomes the Defendant.
  • The Don is both a Handsome Devil and Pack Alpha. If he is the Defendant and Pack Alpha kicks in, there is no death from the Trial Phase.
  • Morgan Fey is the Wolf Seer. If the Fey targets her, Morgan learns the identity of the Fey. This is a partial counter to the presence of Diego.
  • Damon Gant can cast 3 additional Guilty votes. These votes are not considered to be Forged Evidence and appear as Power Votes in the full tally (so players will know who Gant targeted, but can't use that to identify Gant himself). I'm not sure whether these should be allowed to stack.

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Re: The Games Idea Thread

Postby Mortus » 09 Oct 2013, 20:58:11

Phoenix Wright TWG


Objection!

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Re: The Games Idea Thread

Postby Hellheart » 09 Oct 2013, 21:06:28

Mortus wrote:
Phoenix Wright TWG


Objection!

I object! That was...objectionable!

I really need to get a hand on a 3DS/2DS so I can play the newer Ace Attorney games.

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Re: The Games Idea Thread

Postby sphenodont » 10 Oct 2013, 09:22:32

Hellheart wrote:I really need to get a hand on a 3DS/2DS so I can play the newer Ace Attorney games.


I can see that someone here wants to discover the secret behind Trucy's MAGIC PANTIES.

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Re: The Games Idea Thread

Postby Hellheart » 10 Oct 2013, 13:59:43

sphenodont wrote:
Hellheart wrote:I really need to get a hand on a 3DS/2DS so I can play the newer Ace Attorney games.


I can see that someone here wants to discover the secret behind Trucy's MAGIC PANTIES.

I'm sorry! I just had to know how they worked! I didn't know that it would stop that car from starting!

I'm not a pervert, I swear!

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Re: The Games Idea Thread

Postby Hellheart » 15 Oct 2013, 01:31:56

Any thoughts on the viability of the actual system (voting, powers, whether the Attorney/Prosecutor have enough to keep them occupied, etc)?

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Re: The Games Idea Thread

Postby rekard » 15 Oct 2013, 07:58:01

Too few players are involved in that game. There are phases wholly dedicated to only 2 players and the it's not clear how a player will be declared guilty or not guilty. Apparently that's the judge and it is decided either randomly or by subjective RP. And having all votes being private does not encourage much participation.

The trial phase enforces a player to participate to a degree that they would have to schedule time for a quicker trial phase. Also by taking out agency from the players to that degree makes it it not much of a TWG game. It also makes it a longer game than most. Sounds good on paper but the main problem is that the most important parts of the game only involve 2 players.

Wolves also get an advantage because not only do the players need to vote for a wolf, but the attorney has to convict the wolf after. If the attorney already is convinced the first defendant is a wolf, the turnabout phase feels unnecessary and it still can kill the wrong person.

I think it needs a more streamlining and more player involvement.

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Re: The Games Idea Thread

Postby Hellheart » 15 Oct 2013, 11:59:39

rekard wrote:Too few players are involved in that game. There are phases wholly dedicated to only 2 players and the it's not clear how a player will be declared guilty or not guilty. Apparently that's the judge and it is decided either randomly or by subjective RP. And having all votes being private does not encourage much participation.

The votes determine whether a person lives or dies. The judge or randomness only takes part if there is a tie in the votes. The Trial Phase is, in many ways, an elaborate way of running an EOD calculation until the Prosecutor and Attorney start trying to level each other. I worry that too many (or too few!) of the Prosecutor's decisions will be made for him based on vote accumulation. I also worry that the Attorney may not have enough information to make accurate decisions. That was very difficult to balance and I'm still not fully happy with the result.

The trial phase enforces a player to participate to a degree that they would have to schedule time for a quicker trial phase. Also by taking out agency from the players to that degree makes it it not much of a TWG game. It also makes it a longer game than most. Sounds good on paper but the main problem is that the most important parts of the game only involve 2 players.

I fully agree with the first point and I feel it's the weakest part of the design - the ideal is to wrap up EOD at a time where the Attorney and Prosecutor can devote their full attention to it for a period of time...but we'd potentially be talking about a 2-minute-turn BB game's worth of time every weekday for more than a week.

I think the secret voting aspect contributes to a feeling of powerlessness. I think it may make more sense for the guilty votes to be made publicly, while the innocence votes can be made and retained secretly.

Wolves also get an advantage because not only do the players need to vote for a wolf, but the attorney has to convict the wolf after. If the attorney already is convinced the first defendant is a wolf, the turnabout phase feels unnecessary and it still can kill the wrong person.

The Prosecutor has great incentive to identify and nominate wolves that get enough guilty votes. Any Wolf that is straight-up sentenced to death does nothing for the Attorney, and there are only so many wolves. I agree that the Attorney should be able to waive the Turnabout phase entirely.

I think it needs a more streamlining and more player involvement.

I agree, which is why I want feedback. The Judge could solo-RP the Trial Phase himself in a much-longer-than-normal EOD resolution. This will allow the Prosecutor and Attorney to still make the selections and choices I described, but it removes most of the draw for being one or the other. They would need, at the very least, full access to the day thread...but that would remove a lot of the issues with time and effort and avoids some thorny issues with RP.

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Re: The Games Idea Thread

Postby twdog » 05 Nov 2013, 08:08:41

Omega wrote:
twdog wrote:
Variant game mechanics fitting in with the core of the game is on my mind right now, because I'm dealing with something similar. At the moment, I'm working out a System Shock themed game incorporating most of the mechanics of the Innsmouth game. I'd like to have hostile NPC hybrids running around that the players would have to fight or avoid, but I'm not getting it to work quiet right.


This. Yes. This is good.


Sadly, I think I'm going to abandon the idea of a System Shock theme. I can't come up with a plausible reason why a group of survivors would spend days lynching people one by one trying ferret out a smaller group that is killing them one by one.

I might return to a Lovecraft setting, perhaps in Dunwich. Or perhaps mentally unstable conspiracy theorists (humans) vs. Aliens\The Shadow Government.

edit:

Also, I believe I've got the "hostile NPC" part figured out. Everyone will be special, and encountering a foe will result in weakening or suppressing special powers. I didn't want to damage people's voting ability, because the lynch is the only way the humans can win.
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Re: The Games Idea Thread

Postby Nitestorm » 05 Nov 2013, 10:21:14

twdog wrote:
Omega wrote:
twdog wrote:
Variant game mechanics fitting in with the core of the game is on my mind right now, because I'm dealing with something similar. At the moment, I'm working out a System Shock themed game incorporating most of the mechanics of the Innsmouth game. I'd like to have hostile NPC hybrids running around that the players would have to fight or avoid, but I'm not getting it to work quiet right.


This. Yes. This is good.


Sadly, I think I'm going to abandon the idea of a System Shock theme. I can't come up with a plausible reason why a group of survivors would spend days lynching people one by one trying ferret out a smaller group that is killing them one by one.

I might return to a Lovecraft setting, perhaps in Dunwich. Or perhaps mentally unstable conspiracy theorists (humans) vs. Aliens\The Shadow Government.

edit:

Also, I believe I've got the "hostile NPC" part figured out. Everyone will be special, and encountering a foe will result in weakening or suppressing special powers. I didn't want to damage people's voting ability, because the lynch is the only way the humans can win.


Whatever you do, make sure there is an option for unlimited notes again. :twisted:

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Re: The Games Idea Thread

Postby twdog » 05 Nov 2013, 10:36:26

Sure, I'll include notes ... and you'll get a penalty vote for every one you drop. Let's see how much you really fear Ozy :twisted:

--

Actually, the note mechanic was a flop. What was suppose to happen, was that the wolves would figure out the shuggoth wasn't entirely under their control, and then inform the humans that they had a common enemy without compromising their identities. The shuggoth couldn't read notes, so there might have been some human\wolf collaboration as well.

Obviously, this didn't happen.
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Re: The Games Idea Thread

Postby rekard » 05 Nov 2013, 19:37:15

My next game involves these three phrases.

Damocles Sword.
Prisoner's Dilemma.
Minority Wins.

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Re: The Games Idea Thread

Postby Hellheart » 19 Nov 2013, 19:20:55

I have a couple fun wolf roles for a kind-of-Vanilla game.

You are the Suicide Bomber. At any point up to 1 hour before EOD, you can post (bolded and in red as it is here) YOU'RE ALL GOING DOWN WITH ME! You immediately die, and one of the following will happen (equal chance of each): nothing else happens, the player that last voted for you dies, the 3 players that last voted for you die, or everybody that currently has a vote on you dies along with a randomly chosen wolf.

You are a Wolf. You win by eliminating or reaching parity with the humans.

You are the Reverse Master Exploder. If you are killed on Day 1 or Night 1 you will take out 5 random humans. Every time a new day dawns, this ability will kill one less other person. The maul cannot trigger this ability.

You are a Wolf. You win eliminating or reaching parity with the humans.

I have a TON of fun making up roles, including ones that are much less powerful than these. If anybody wants a few roles to fill things out for a game, I'm a great person to tap. I'm most interested in making fun neutral roles that don't have a lot of powers but are a change of pace from the normal serial killer role.

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Re: The Games Idea Thread

Postby Hellheart » 26 Nov 2013, 08:11:31

Here's a couple of slightly more complicated ones. The Riddler works best in an Everybody's Special game, although it would also function well in a normal game if the humans have at least one full Seer and one partial Seer.

You are The Riddler. Every night, you will devise a riddle and choose two players. Those players will be anonymously given the riddle at the start of the following day and told the consequences should they fail. Each player has 3 guesses at the riddle; if a player fails to correctly answer the riddle by EOD, you will be given their full role information that night.

You are a Wolf. You win eliminating or reaching parity with the humans.

[GM ONLY] Encourage the player to provide the riddle early in the day so he has time to devise a new one if you reject it; he could optionally provide up to 3 riddles and hope that one sticks. You may opt to allow themed riddles (eg, a Lord of the Rings-based riddle) and give the players the theme along with the riddle.

You are the Avenging Angel. You can watch one player each night and kill one random visitor, including the last wolf to cast a maul vote for that player if he is targeted by the maul. You do not know the identities of the Seer or Guardian Angel, but you recognize them on sight and will never attempt to kill them.

You cannot watch a player more than once. You cannot watch yourself.

You are a Human. Kill the wolves to win.

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Re: The Games Idea Thread

Postby twdog » 12 Mar 2014, 13:50:19

I'm not sure where else to stick this, and it's not worth a whole thread for itself.

Can I get some thoughts on mechanics? In my past games, I had mechanic where as a result of night actions players could be wounded and their vote would count for half. I think reducing their voting power make things less fun for players, so I'm planning on doing it different this time. Under certain circumstances, a player would pick up extra votes in the morning (same thing as penalty votes) if something bad happens to them, but they still have full voting power. Does that sound better?

More fundamentally, does regularly screwing around with the day voting totals, regardless of whether it's wound votes or vote manipulator powers or whatever, make the day less fun or make day voting pointless, in your opinion?
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Re: The Games Idea Thread

Postby Ozymandias » 12 Mar 2014, 13:54:57

twdog wrote:I'm not sure where else to stick this, and it's not worth a whole thread for itself.

Can I get some thoughts on mechanics? In my past games, I had mechanic where as a result of night actions players could be wounded and their vote would count for half. I think reducing their voting power make things less fun for players, so I'm planning on doing it different this time. Under certain circumstances, a player would pick up extra votes in the morning (same thing as penalty votes) if something bad happens to them, but they still have full voting power. Does that sound better?

More fundamentally, does regularly screwing around with the day voting totals, regardless of whether it's wound votes or vote manipulator powers or whatever, make the day less fun or make day voting pointless, in your opinion?

I think vote manipulations where everyone knows what manipulations are in play, and have a way of figuring out who's doing the manipulation, can be fun.

But secret powers that appear to randomly effect vote totals are very frustrating for me-- especially because it makes analyzing the lynch voting inordinately difficult.

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Re: The Games Idea Thread

Postby Omega » 12 Mar 2014, 14:21:49

Ozymandias wrote:But secret powers that appear to randomly effect vote totals are very frustrating for me-- especially because it makes analyzing the lynch voting inordinately difficult.


I'll keep that in mind. :twisted:

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Re: The Games Idea Thread

Postby Hellheart » 12 Mar 2014, 14:24:23

Ozymandias wrote:But secret powers that appear to randomly effect vote totals are very frustrating for me-- especially because it makes analyzing the lynch voting inordinately difficult.

I think votebuying, as an ability, is awesome if used sparingly. It should never have unlimited uses though, because that's where a lot of the problems lie.

twdog wrote:More fundamentally, does regularly screwing around with the day voting totals, regardless of whether it's wound votes or vote manipulator powers or whatever, make the day less fun or make day voting pointless, in your opinion?

I agree with Ozy that clearly denoted vote effects are fine, as long as they don't potentially outstrip the voting power of an entire faction. I would prefer penalty votes over halving a player's votes, because it was impossible to determine if a player was wounded in the last map game and so you were never really sure what the vote totals were unless people shared when they were injured (and they generally did).

The more appropriate question, IMO, is: how else could wounds reflect upon the game if you don't have them outright result in death? They can affect the lynch total, they can affect night actions, or they can restrict a player's ability to post for a period of time or an entire day. Out of those three, penalty votes are probably the best way to handle it because limited night actions could feed into a cycle where a player constantly gets wounded and can never use his ability. That would tilt the living shit out of me.

I think each player should have a "medkit" that will remove 1 or 2 penalty votes either once or twice a game. It must be used at least 1 hour before EOD if it removes 2 votes, which IMO should be standard for most abilities that cause big voting swings.

----

Omega, you missed out on a vote manipulation role that would have driven Ozy nuts. It might come back around to you if I don't see it soon though, because I love it and it's totally up your alley :lol:

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Re: The Games Idea Thread

Postby rekard » 12 Mar 2014, 14:40:51

As with many things in life, vote manipulation powers are good if they are implemented with limits. If manipulation is done excessively, it can make a lynch pointless and frustrating for the not involved parties.

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Re: The Games Idea Thread

Postby Admetus » 12 Mar 2014, 14:48:39

Was it CAD's or rekard's Everyone's Special game where the vote manipulation powers and effects had individual names on the tallies? I liked that, because once you figured out the who and how for "Shadow Vote," for instance, you could use that information to your benefit. Since each label had rules, you could make progress as you got more data.

So I guess I mean, clear labeling can still leave some puzzles to solve, and some information advantages for players.

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Re: The Games Idea Thread

Postby twdog » 12 Mar 2014, 14:54:40

Hellheart wrote:The more appropriate question, IMO, is: how else could wounds reflect upon the game if you don't have them outright result in death? They can affect the lynch total, they can affect night actions, or they can restrict a player's ability to post for a period of time or an entire day. Out of those three, penalty votes are probably the best way to handle it because limited night actions could feed into a cycle where a player constantly gets wounded and can never use his ability. That would tilt the living shit out of me.

I think each player should have a "medkit" that will remove 1 or 2 penalty votes either once or twice a game. It must be used at least 1 hour before EOD if it removes 2 votes, which IMO should be standard for most abilities that cause big voting swings.


I want to have the "wound" mechanic as a way to add challenges and dangers to the game, but a major point is that they are not lethal. You're generally loosing two people a day as it is, so I don't want another 2 or 3 people going out every night due to wounds.

The idea last game was that zombie wounds would effectively give admetus significant voting advantages, but that didn't work out for various reasons including poor implementation.

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I'm trying to avoid things that require GM intervention during the game, aside from the vig shot of course. It seems too failure prone for IRL reasons. You might be counting on the GM to be available to clear those wounds an hour before EOD, but he might not be available. What then? Do we just halt all voting till the GM shows up?

I'm not trying to be hostile or anything like that, I'm just really trying to think twice about anything that requires my attention. How much does this thing add to the game, and how much work will it require from me?

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shifting to Ozy's comments, I wasn't going to have a secret vote manipulator power, so that's good. I'm trying to cut down on the number of secrets, in fact. The way I see it is that the typical game only lasts 6-8 days, and the game is often decided on cycle 4. So if you've only got say 3 or 4 nights before the game's apogee, then you don't have a lot of time for slowly doling out information, complex mysteries, and gradual increases of tension

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edit: added quote from Hellheart that I was replying to
you hear an odd muffled noise in the shoggoth tank

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Re: The Games Idea Thread

Postby Okaros » 12 Mar 2014, 16:15:24

One thought for wound penalties that I don't think has been mentioned:

Why not have someone who's wounded have their lynch/maul/seer/etc... actions locked-in when they make them the first time that day? It's an indirect threat/limitation and is even vaguely RP-appropriate: If you're wounded, maybe you're only waking up briefly to cast your votes/do your things and then going back to sleep for the rest of the day?

Pros:
-) There's no real GM intervention needed except at EOD (to make sure nobody moves their locked votes)
-) Wounds can be either publicly-known or not, with different voting strategy implications either way
-) Players can work with/around their limitation as their schedule permits. Not going to be around snipe and thus can't delay your vote? You'd be voting early anyway, so no huge loss...

Cons:
-) Requires some careful review of the vote history at EOD (though players will probably help police this if the wounds are publicly known)
-) Not as much impact in analysis/gameplay as, say, penalty votes, weakened voting ability, or diminished powers
I kind of assume Okaros is out to backstab me until proven otherwise. - DOM


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