Card Stock - Dead Chat

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Re: Card Stock - Dead Chat

Postby dferrantino » 10 Apr 2017, 13:40:41

Ryvvn wrote:
Okaros wrote:I didn't let my team down at all, hah!

You're on team peasant; I'd wager you let both dferr and DOM down... though I imagine for different reasons.

"Not being dferr or DOM" is reason enough.

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Re: Card Stock - Dead Chat

Postby Ryvvn » 10 Apr 2017, 18:15:26

In a parallel universe, the first few days could have gone like this, giving the humans a much better shot.

Day 1: Call for a priest (there's at least one if not two) to step forward and be the day one detainee.
Day 2: The priest selects two players: if the priest is a wolf, they are forced to select two humans, because selecting the other wolf guarantees the end of the game; otherwise the priest is human and maybe lucky hits the wolf and another human, or hits two humans whom should reveal factions (not roles) immediately at the start of the next day.
Day 3: 10 players remain, 2 of which are now confirmed humans, leaving 8 to select from.
3.a. If either of the two confirmed humans (or just any other player) happens to be another priest, that player is detained that day to seer 2 of the remaining 7 unknowns.
3.b. If there is no second priest, a handmaid steps forward (if hasn't been mauled), and is detained that day, to protect the other confirmed human the next day (provided the handmaid wasn't one of the two confirmed).
3.c. If there is no second priest and no handmaid, the next best thing would be if one of the confirmed is the Princess, in which case the other confirmed gets detained so that neither confirmed can be mauled that night.
3.d. A confirmed human King is good as well, because that player can ask the Princess (if unconfirmed to reveal) so the King can be detained that night and take the Princess card, providing the humans with their confirmed alpha human; the new King should then never be detained again, because if the King happens to be a wolf, it can be killed via a guard ability if necessary (provided a human guard lives). If no one steps forward as Princess if a confirmed King calls for them, then the Princess is a wolf, and a full role call is requested.
3.x. I'm sure there are other possibilities as well.

Essentially, the humans could have forced the wolves to wither away some unknowns, giving the humans a smaller selection to guess from. I think players may have been too overwhelmed with the roles and rules, and too concerned about the lack of lynch info, to really delve into how their powers could potentially work together; and that is on me, for not properly planning or balancing the game.

Obviously a major problem is the uninterrupted mauls paired with uncertain lynchings, crippling the humans ability to kill even a potentially known wolf. These are issues I would address and alter were I ever to run this game type again.

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Re: Card Stock - Dead Chat

Postby stdio » 10 Apr 2017, 18:37:57

thanks for running this game, sorry I wasn't really in it; I'm about to leave on a 2 week trip tomorrow and I've got a ton of things that I was trying to wrap up, but I still appreciate the time you put into this.

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Re: Card Stock - Dead Chat

Postby Okaros » 10 Apr 2017, 19:03:57

You're going to miss my game with that schedule, stdio. You should look into rescheduling your trip. :P
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Re: Card Stock - Dead Chat

Postby Admetus » 10 Apr 2017, 19:05:40

Ryvvn wrote:In a parallel universe, the first few days could have gone like this, giving the humans a much better shot.

A lot of those steps don't really advance anything, they just pass time. While they're spending these lynches on making sure "the confirmed" don't die, other humans are being picked off. And since we're apparently just lynching people who volunteer after revealing their roles, how is that a wolf game? Maybe I'm misunderstanding the entire goal...

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Re: Card Stock - Dead Chat

Postby Okaros » 10 Apr 2017, 19:12:28

Admetus wrote:...how is that a wolf game?


I think this may ultimately hit my concern with this ruleset.

It's definitely an interesting set of rules, and at first glance it looks like they should be a good fit for a TWG-style affair, but I think the motivations/incentives provided by the powers encourage the game to be more "solve the puzzle of who the wolves are using these powers as tools" rather than a "can you tell which of your friends is lying based on their voting history and power usage" affair. In the latter type of game, the Princess is super powerful because deliberately killing her off is a super wolfy move. In the former, she's not actually that strong at all because of how she distorts the information gathering efforts of the human team.
(it also would trend very heavily towards full human-team-collaboration being required from the beginning, which is... not something we're good at here ;) )

I'd be curious to see if you could reshape things (with a sledgehammer) into something more wolf game-y, Ryvvn, as the theme is pretty neat and I like the core concept for several of the powers.
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Re: Card Stock - Dead Chat

Postby Ryvvn » 10 Apr 2017, 19:24:12

Admetus wrote:
Ryvvn wrote:In a parallel universe, the first few days could have gone like this, giving the humans a much better shot.

A lot of those steps don't really advance anything, they just pass time. While they're spending these lynches on making sure "the confirmed" don't die, other humans are being picked off. And since we're apparently just lynching people who volunteer after revealing their roles, how is that a wolf game? Maybe I'm misunderstanding the entire goal...

I don't know if you meant for that to sound rudely antagonistic, but that's how I read it.

To me, Werewolf/Mafia (or any variant thereof) is about uninformed majority vs informed minority, and the majority using what they have at their disposal to suss out the wolves before they themselves are eliminated. Anything on top of that is just flavor and fun, and personally I enjoy playing an interesting broken game than a pure and perfectly balanced game. Also, to me, the wolf game is more about socializing than math, something we've discussed previously as regards the limitations of forum based games.

I've already admitted this game had problems, but I personally think I would have had an enjoyable time playing in it and making the best of the systems presented to me; I hope most of you had fun despite its issues. I apologize to any who were let down and just did not have fun, I certainly don't like to waste anyone's time.

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Re: Card Stock - Dead Chat

Postby Ryvvn » 10 Apr 2017, 19:26:18

Okaros wrote:
Admetus wrote:...how is that a wolf game?


I think this may ultimately hit my concern with this ruleset.

It's definitely an interesting set of rules, and at first glance it looks like they should be a good fit for a TWG-style affair, but I think the motivations/incentives provided by the powers encourage the game to be more "solve the puzzle of who the wolves are using these powers as tools" rather than a "can you tell which of your friends is lying based on their voting history and power usage" affair. In the latter type of game, the Princess is super powerful because deliberately killing her off is a super wolfy move. In the former, she's not actually that strong at all because of how she distorts the information gathering efforts of the human team.
(it also would trend very heavily towards full human-team-collaboration being required from the beginning, which is... not something we're good at here ;) )

I'd be curious to see if you could reshape things (with a sledgehammer) into something more wolf game-y, Ryvvn, as the theme is pretty neat and I like the core concept for several of the powers.

I appreciate you wording the criticism the way you have, it makes more sense to me put across like that.

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Re: Card Stock - Dead Chat

Postby Okaros » 10 Apr 2017, 19:36:08

Ryvvn wrote:I appreciate you wording the criticism the way you have, it makes more sense to me put across like that.

It took an intersection of your alternative universe play guide and the comments from Admetus to really make it click home for me.
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Re: Card Stock - Dead Chat

Postby Admetus » 10 Apr 2017, 20:06:32

I'm not trying to antagonize. I apologize if I offended.

I sat on my critique for a day to think about it, and make sure I was reacting to the mechanics of the game, not the particular play-through we created here. One play-through of these types of games can often be quite biased. However, "how is that a wolf game" is a very valid question around here. I'm sure you've seen it pop up plenty through the games idea thread in the pub. My original comment was meant to address those things, to lay out explicitly what its difficulties as a wolf game were, and offer my suggestions to bring it back on track if it were run again.

Your response kind of surprised me, as it was basically "well if the town wasn't treating this like a wolf game, they'd have done better." Okay, so like I said, I guess I went into it with some big misunderstandings.

I'm up for trying new things. I've signed on for a whole bunch of not-wolf-game games. I'm probably one of your most frequent participants for those experiments. In this case, however, I feel like my expectations (can't speak for other people) were of an everyone's special, heavily themed wolf game.

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Re: Card Stock - Dead Chat

Postby Ryvvn » 10 Apr 2017, 20:10:01

Yeah, sorry, I didn't compound your two posts; I'm out drinking and just read the latest as non-constructive criticism and had a knee-jerk reaction.

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Re: Card Stock - Dead Chat

Postby Ryvvn » 10 Apr 2017, 20:12:43

By (nagging) request of FCM, I've added her to dead right away, though it'll still be a bit before I process all EoD stuff.

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Re: Card Stock - Dead Chat

Postby Ryvvn » 10 Apr 2017, 21:08:48

Welcome blindsniper and (officially) fairy catmother!

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Re: Card Stock - Dead Chat

Postby The Fairy Catmother » 10 Apr 2017, 21:31:56

I don't understand… Why is nobody required to vote?

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Re: Card Stock - Dead Chat

Postby Ryvvn » 10 Apr 2017, 21:38:21

The Fairy Catmother wrote:I don't understand… Why is nobody required to vote?

Because there won't be a tomorrow no matter what happens today.

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Re: Card Stock - Dead Chat

Postby The Fairy Catmother » 10 Apr 2017, 21:43:37

it's a shame that if Chris switches with Zark, everyone will know that the guard came from zark, but it still won't be considered an officially revealed rule

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Re: Card Stock - Dead Chat

Postby The Fairy Catmother » 10 Apr 2017, 21:49:41

I don't think relard understands that there is no tomorrow. I don't think it's sunk in for most players that Lynch does not equal A day kill.

This makes me feel like I really should've pushed the whole "if you think Chris is a wolf, don't vote for him, because it only lets him use his power tomorrow" thing. It was a lie, but it was a lie that made sense. I just don't think I made myself clear

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Re: Card Stock - Dead Chat

Postby Hellheart » 11 Apr 2017, 03:09:18

So Chris can swap with Zark, guess King for Zark since it counts as unrevealed, and win it for the humans?

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Re: Card Stock - Dead Chat

Postby The Fairy Catmother » 11 Apr 2017, 04:39:27

Yeah, he can :-(

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Re: Card Stock - Dead Chat

Postby Gungnir888 » 11 Apr 2017, 07:38:22

I've said it before, but I need to start saying it in the day threads while I'm still alive: we need to do a better job discussing the rules and what-if scenarios on special games before they happen. I tried to do that a little bit this game. It would help the humans understand how to utilize their powers, provide a bit more back and forth weighing the viabilities of different strategies, and potentially out some wolfiness from people providing bad or unreasonable strategies.

It is telling that several of the more complicated games have that back and forth on the night board, but we continue to disregard it in the day board. I can understand not wanting to provide the wolves a strategy they may not see, but in two faction games we really do ourselves a disservice by not talking strategy.

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Re: Card Stock - Dead Chat

Postby The Fairy Catmother » 11 Apr 2017, 13:51:12

I fully agree, Gungnir. Especially for games like this.

I still find it so ironic/amusing/frustrating that my talk of strategy yesterday fell on deaf ears. Yes, I may have been a wolf trying to manipulate the situation, but what I said was true- if rekard really thought that Chris was a wolf, the correct play would NOT be to lynch him.

I lol'ed when I saw that Aldax forgot to choose two people. Man, it would've been brilliant if I had had the balls to come out and claim like I wanted.

I'm really hoping that Chris thinks rekard is the last wolf and switches with him. *sends mindcontrol vibes through the air to Germany*

Also, Ryvvn, I really enjoyed this game. As frustrating as the imbalances were, I would play again, even if you DIDN'T change anything. Not hating on vanilla, but I also would rather play an off game with interesting mechanics than a perfectly balanced one with nothing special. Of course, ideally a game is both interesting AND well-balanced, but if you never try ideas, you never see what works and what doesn't!

Then again, y'all have seen the games I GM, so...

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Re: Card Stock - Dead Chat

Postby Okaros » 11 Apr 2017, 17:11:52

The Fairy Catmother wrote:I'm really hoping that Chris thinks rekard is the last wolf and switches with him. *sends mindcontrol vibes through the air to Germany*

It's bad form to successfully exercise mind control over fellow players, FCM. :P
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Re: Card Stock - Dead Chat

Postby The Fairy Catmother » 11 Apr 2017, 17:17:51

Welp, looks like my mind control worked! :twisted:

Yay wolves!

It does suck for the humans, to lose the game based on a player ability, and not because of a mislynch the last day. Kinda changes the meaning of lynch-or-lose, which is important to note, I think.

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Re: Card Stock - Dead Chat

Postby Ryvvn » 11 Apr 2017, 17:30:35

All boards should be open.

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Re: Card Stock - Dead Chat

Postby rekard » 11 Apr 2017, 17:32:49

I didn't have time to talk due to being a bit busy. I knew that Chris had no chance of winning if he swapped with me. If he was a wolf, he would die.
If he was a human he would die and lose regardless.

The only chance was with Zark, but there was no opportunity for me to post more.

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Re: Card Stock - Dead Chat

Postby rekard » 11 Apr 2017, 17:36:36

Also well, I didn't know if Chris was a wolf so I was afraid of giving any hint. If he was a wolf he probably could win switching with Zark or something.

Also, yeah the rules made things iffy. It was difficult to ascertain who was who with irregular lynching and constant mauls.

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Re: Card Stock - Dead Chat

Postby 7-zark-7 » 11 Apr 2017, 18:48:18

Thanks for the game Ryvvn - a nail biter to the end.

My lean to FCM was legit - she obviously knew the game (using it as a way to resolve in a prior game), so I figured she would have nuance and mind of the GM advantage. I was actually a bit surprised she didn't draw heat on either note as a preferred convert, & was prepared to throw the that's too meta comment if needed.

Rekard, I really ~strongly~ thought about picking you, even if you had to lone wolf it, I figured you could make it.

When you self voted end of day 1, I figured you had something special, but when I saw you were an immortal princess, I just about shit a brick. Whenever I'm a wolf, I keep a pretty close eye on you, and here you were publicly announced as human (prior to conversion, but still), unlynchable and unmaulable until the end of days. Kudos on a very good game.

More in a bit,

7z7

PS: Can we get a Pretty Princess custom title for Rekard?
"Zark Helmet is too awesome NOT to use!" -Smirker
"The possibility that it's Zark simply murdering someone at a whim each day... would be delightful if true, but I worry that that's too simple a solution." - Okaros

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Re: Card Stock - Dead Chat

Postby 7-zark-7 » 11 Apr 2017, 18:56:57

FCM, thanks for the company and council in the wolf forum. I really lamented when the coin flip meant you were detained and I wasn't. I think you've got a better endgame than I usually do.

This came completely down to ChrisWulf's choice on the last day. Kudos to our King & welcome to the fun. We all spend a lot of time here & we're glad to have you on board.

More in a bit,

7z7
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"The possibility that it's Zark simply murdering someone at a whim each day... would be delightful if true, but I worry that that's too simple a solution." - Okaros


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