Card Stock - Dead Chat

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Card Stock - Dead Chat

Postby Ryvvn » 02 Apr 2017, 21:28:09

Buck up, I'm sure you didn't let your team down or anything.

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Re: Card Stock - Dead Chat

Postby Okaros » 03 Apr 2017, 06:54:07

I didn't let my team down at all, hah!
I kind of assume Okaros is out to backstab me until proven otherwise. - DOM

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Re: Card Stock - Dead Chat

Postby Ryvvn » 03 Apr 2017, 19:11:31

Okaros wrote:I didn't let my team down at all, hah!

You're on team peasant; I'd wager you let both dferr and DOM down... though I imagine for different reasons.

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Re: Card Stock - Dead Chat

Postby Okaros » 04 Apr 2017, 12:26:47

While making rekard the Princess is all kinds of appropriate theme-wise, who thought it would be a good idea to make him an Alpha? Yeesh. :P
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Re: Card Stock - Dead Chat

Postby Ryvvn » 04 Apr 2017, 13:47:08

Okaros wrote:While making rekard the Princess is all kinds of appropriate theme-wise, who thought it would be a good idea to make him an Alpha? Yeesh. :P

I used actually Love Letter cards to randomize roles, and as soon as I flipped Princess for rekard my immediate and literal reaction was, "Of course."

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Re: Card Stock - Dead Chat

Postby Okaros » 04 Apr 2017, 14:24:18

It's a little unclear from the phrasing, since the Princess power is structured differently than the others...

The role swapping and role discard/replace powers seem to clearly trump the Princess power, but...

* Does the Countess trump the Princess? Countess says the victim may not *use* their power, but the Princess has both a Passive (Alpha) and Activated portion (voting control)
* Do the Baron or Guard trump the Princess? They both eject someone else in their place, without any reference to the victim's powers.
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Re: Card Stock - Dead Chat

Postby Ryvvn » 04 Apr 2017, 15:10:13

Okaros wrote:It's a little unclear from the phrasing, since the Princess power is structured differently than the others...

The role swapping and role discard/replace powers seem to clearly trump the Princess power, but...

* Does the Countess trump the Princess? Countess says the victim may not *use* their power, but the Princess has both a Passive (Alpha) and Activated portion (voting control)
* Do the Baron or Guard trump the Princess? They both eject someone else in their place, without any reference to the victim's powers.

The Princess' vote trumping power would be disabled in certain situations, as those you describe; but the Princess as a card allows that player to not be eligible for elimination until the condition is met. So that player will just keep bouncing back to play instead of being eliminated at the time it would happen. However, roles such as the Prince and King which cause trades, can transfer the Princess card and that power to a new player. I think rekard is forgetting these points...

rekard PM wrote:Wait wait wait.

So I can't die?

Ryvvn PM response wrote:You're an alpha for either team. Right now you're human unless you get selected to be the other wolf.

rekard PM wrote:Wait wait wait X 3

So of I'm detained, everyone will know I'm human?

Did I get that right?

Ryvvn PM response wrote:Yep.

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Re: Card Stock - Dead Chat

Postby Ryvvn » 04 Apr 2017, 15:20:07

rekard PM wrote:
Ryvvn wrote:Yep.


Hah.

Hahahaha.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

I mean, coolios.

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Re: Card Stock - Dead Chat

Postby Ryvvn » 04 Apr 2017, 17:37:35

All votes are in, if nothing changes I'll be deciding which vote leader gets detained via RNG.

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Re: Card Stock - Dead Chat

Postby Okaros » 04 Apr 2017, 18:53:07

May I suggest an alternative wherein the peasants break ties? :twisted:
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Re: Card Stock - Dead Chat

Postby Ryvvn » 04 Apr 2017, 20:02:32

Torn on what to do about rekard's self vote because...
Rules wrote:Each player must vote for another player once per day

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Re: Card Stock - Dead Chat

Postby Okaros » 04 Apr 2017, 20:09:10

Self-voting *has* traditionally been allowed.

Edit: Plus, while he may not be aware of it, his approach has some serious drawbacks as he'll later discover most likely. Hopefully someone will point out that if there's a wolf with one of several roles, he just gave them a get-out-of-jail-free card.


I'd vote to allow it, myself.
Last edited by Okaros on 04 Apr 2017, 20:10:39, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Card Stock - Dead Chat

Postby Ryvvn » 04 Apr 2017, 20:10:00

Ryvvn wrote:Torn on what to do about rekard's self vote because...
Rules wrote:Each player must vote for another player once per day

Well I RNG'd to see what would have happened; luckily rekard came up anyway, alleviating the need for me to ignore RNG and make an actual decision.

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Re: Card Stock - Dead Chat

Postby Ryvvn » 04 Apr 2017, 20:11:10

Okaros wrote:Self-voting *has* traditionally been allowed.

I know, I didn't make it blatantly clear, but I did purposefully use the word "another" to discourage it because of player powers. The question is, do I make it clear now that it's not allowed, or allow it; I'll have to make a statement one way or the other.

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Re: Card Stock - Dead Chat

Postby Okaros » 04 Apr 2017, 20:13:31

See my comments I edited in, I think there's some distinct negatives to rekard's strategy here (enough that I'm not sure he would've self-voted had he realized).
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Re: Card Stock - Dead Chat

Postby Ryvvn » 04 Apr 2017, 20:26:31

Okaros wrote:See my comments I edited in, I think there's some distinct negatives to rekard's strategy here (enough that I'm not sure he would've self-voted had he realized).

Okay, I just will let it be and not say anything; if it gets asked later on, I'll state it's allowed despite the wording in the rules.

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Re: Card Stock - Dead Chat

Postby Okaros » 04 Apr 2017, 20:39:23

Err, hrm. Does rekard's reveal as human happen immediately when his role is revealed, or only when he survives execution? I don't think I had fully processed the implications of that either way.
Edit: n/m, remembered to actually read the start of the day.
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Re: Card Stock - Dead Chat

Postby Ryvvn » 04 Apr 2017, 20:40:56

I realized something.

It lucked out that the Princess was first to be detained on the day the second wolf needed to be selected. The order of operations as it stands, means I could only reveal that rekard was a human. However, with the Order of Ops as is: Ejection Kill, Move New to Detention, Maul Kill; by the rules the wolves would not be eligible to maul a given player the night they move into detention, nor select them for the next night's kill either, giving that player a two night maul avoidance. I'm not sure if this is harsh on the wolves or not, considering all the other elements at play and that the wolves could just conditional around this.

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Re: Card Stock - Dead Chat

Postby Okaros » 04 Apr 2017, 20:43:58

It might be worth explicitly calling that problem and the conditional work-around to the attention of the wolves. It *is* a bit of a weakness.
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Re: Card Stock - Dead Chat

Postby Okaros » 04 Apr 2017, 20:55:33

Sadly for rekard, the one time he gets to be immortal I'm not in the game. :P
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Re: Card Stock - Dead Chat

Postby Ryvvn » 04 Apr 2017, 21:07:54

Interesting thing about the "rekard was human" thing. If and when Zark reveals as wolf, it's not impossible to imagine he might have picked the other day one vote leader for the second wolf just to give them a ton of cover.

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Re: Card Stock - Dead Chat

Postby Okaros » 04 Apr 2017, 21:13:16

Yup. It's really kind of a shame that the Princess auto-reveals and that the wolf selection process was known ahead of time. Can you imagine the speculation if unknown-Princess is revealed and then Zark flips wolf later?
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Re: Card Stock - Dead Chat

Postby Okaros » 05 Apr 2017, 08:18:42

So, to highlight some of the weaknessess with rekard's approach here:

* If you're human, drawing the lynch onto yourself is almost universally bad for the human team. You know you're human, the other person might not be, so they should be the one that gets lynched. (There are exceptions, but Day 1 random voting isn't it)
* As noted, rekard could have been converted during Night 1. It will take another lynch to properly confirm him (and if he *was* converted to being a wolf publicly outing himself that first night is terrible for him *unless* Zark was the other wolf, which he couldn't have known, so...). This is especially a problem, because now lynching the princess to confirm her costs you not just one but *two* days. If this had happened on Day 2 it would've been a much different story.
* It wrecks early-game voting history. Despite some attempts to fake a lynch vote during Day 2 it's not going to be a real vote with any consequences. rekard would have had to pledge to honor the vote tally results no matter what for the day's tally to remotely matter, and he's done the exact opposite. :) The wolves still get a Night 2 maul, so this approach works heavily in their favor.
* If the Prince or King are wolves, publicly outing yourself as the Princess is a big mistake (*especially* with the King).

In particular, consider what happens if the King is a wolf and gets lynched with the Princess public:
King swaps with the Princess. I assume he immediately gets outed as a wolf at that point? (if not, it's even worse for the humans)
If the King's not the last wolf (and there's no reason to swap for the Princess if you are) nobody gets lynched that day, *and* the wolves get a *free mislynch* the following day because they control the lynch! The humans will then either have to hunt the other wolf and deal with a public Alpha messing with them or waste another day arranging the death of the new Wolf Princess (lynch the new King, Prince discard, etc...).

It's a ridiculously huge gamble (it easily could have thrown the game for the humans). One that rekard happens to have mostly won in this case, I think, since both of the wolves are Guards, but wow.


Note that I don't fault/blame rekard for this, it's a completely new set of mechanics and some of the implications aren't obvious in the first read-through (and lets face it, being an Alpha begs you to go public and abuse it).

Ryvvn, my suggestions for future iterations of the mechanics/rules would be to a) don't make the Princess auto-reveal her faction (this feature hurts the wolves substantially) and b) remove either the vote-control or Alpha aspect of her powers. They're both incredibly potent and destabilizing on their own, combining them together is really destructive I think.
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Re: Card Stock - Dead Chat

Postby Ryvvn » 05 Apr 2017, 14:49:04

I'll pop this here instead of the day thread:

I am sincerely sorry for the confusion caused and having to amend things after the game has started, I hate doing that; luckily, the Princess being detained Day 1 has allowed me to make adjustments without significant disruption.

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Re: Card Stock - Dead Chat

Postby Okaros » 05 Apr 2017, 19:43:28

Mmm, if Zark had converted rekard, rekard lynching him today would be *perfect* human-cred and would probably be enough to last the rest of the game.
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Re: Card Stock - Dead Chat

Postby Ryvvn » 05 Apr 2017, 20:45:19

Welcome RaveBomb the (other) Priest.

Probably a good thing they mauled you, two human double blast seers with this small player count could have been disastrous.

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Re: Card Stock - Dead Chat

Postby Okaros » 05 Apr 2017, 21:12:39

Ryvvn wrote:A member of the royalty has been brutally torn asunder! Who (other than Okaros, whom has already been kicked out) could have committed such a terrible act?!


Look Ryvvn, I don't need to be royalty. I'm already a Martian God. That's like 10 quintillion times better.

For one thing, there's way more liquor involved.
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Re: Card Stock - Dead Chat

Postby RaveBomb » 05 Apr 2017, 21:46:38

Ryvvn wrote:Welcome RaveBomb the (other) Priest.

Probably a good thing they mauled you, two human double blast seers with this small player count could have been disastrous.


Glad to help :)
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If you still end up losing after this, it's totally not your fault.-Hellheart
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Re: Card Stock - Dead Chat

Postby Okaros » 06 Apr 2017, 13:14:33

Ryvvn wrote:Handmaid Omega chooses player Okaros to protect.

Truly the most improbable of all example scenarios, well chosen Ryvvn.
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Re: Card Stock - Dead Chat

Postby Okaros » 06 Apr 2017, 15:36:04

One interesting aspect of this ruleset is the delayed lynch-death. The claim/counter-claim of a split wolf/human priest-seering was just brought up, and the curious thing about it is that you have to wait an extra day to find out whether the first person of the two is a wolf or not. The same is true if the population dwindles and people are claiming roles without having been revealed. This should really encourage the wolves in those situations, as the benefits are strong even if they're the first one lynched. I'd imagine first-claim advantage would be really strong here.

The time aspects of these mechanics really have a bunch of knock-on effects, it's kind of fascinating.

Some other fun quirks:
It takes a minimum two days to lynch-kill a wolf, therefore...
* The last wolf still gets a maul on the day they're lynched. This could result in victory!
* A last-wolf with a usable escape-death role is suuuuuuuuper-powerful, as that's *another* two days to finally kill them even if they've been revealed by a priest!
* After lynching the last wolf, the humans must still lynch one of their own while the wolf's power is resolved.

I may need to rescind my previous comment about the auto-reveal on the princess being too strong (I do think alpha+lynch control is pretty game-breaking, though)
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Re: Card Stock - Dead Chat

Postby Ryvvn » 06 Apr 2017, 16:18:43

The wolves are just as vulnerable to the other player abilities though, so the humans could use revealed Role abilities to attempt alternative ways to take out wolves; regardless, there was no way I could have actually balanced this game, just went for what felt right with the roles (the princess was altered from original when it seemed player count would be low and just not reverted back when it grew a bit), and I'll hope players don't feel it's entirely unfair one way or another.

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Re: Card Stock - Dead Chat

Postby Okaros » 06 Apr 2017, 17:30:40

There's certainly some additional vulnerability on the wolf side as there are a couple of roles that basically function like vig shots, but I think that mostly adds volatility rather than human power (I would consider a vig shot in human hands in a vanilla game to be a tool for speeding up a game, not necessarily a power role in their favor). They're also not as on-demand as a vig shot is, so the best part of a vig in human hands (being able to immediately settle a possibly-distracting debate) is missing.
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Re: Card Stock - Dead Chat

Postby Ryvvn » 06 Apr 2017, 18:20:17

Hmm, seems Zark's out getting drnka (from his last post), and FCM is out at rehearsal and may forget or be unable to check back in before EoD; neither of them have logged a maul.

Other than posting so in their thread, and possibly PM'ing them, I won't be able to do much else (I'd feel it favoritism to directly text FCM and remind her, since I wouldn't necessarily be able to do that for other players).

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Re: Card Stock - Dead Chat

Postby Ryvvn » 06 Apr 2017, 18:25:22

Also, Aldax has not submitted any players for his power yet; I PM'd him, but I worry he won't pop back in before EoD.

Could be fun though, everyone asking who got info, no one being able to honestly respond with any.

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Re: Card Stock - Dead Chat

Postby Ryvvn » 06 Apr 2017, 19:17:18

Interesting. If nothing changes, Hellheart is going in either way, be it as RNG selection or along with Countess Jrs.

Actually even if Hellheart changed his vote for self defense, it just means RNG won't happen and he'll definitely get dragged along but won't be able to use his own power to save himself.

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Re: Card Stock - Dead Chat

Postby Ryvvn » 06 Apr 2017, 19:41:04

I understand why Jrs did that, but he's going to be sorry that he did.

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Re: Card Stock - Dead Chat

Postby Ryvvn » 06 Apr 2017, 20:11:15

Welcome aldax and gungnir.

I'm assuming you just didn't get a chance to come back and make a selection, aldax; I am curious, who would you have picked to seer each other?

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Re: Card Stock - Dead Chat

Postby Aldax » 06 Apr 2017, 20:40:57

Goddammit

I would have picked rekard and rave

I'm so sorry guys work got in the way

Goddammit
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Re: Card Stock - Dead Chat

Postby Okaros » 06 Apr 2017, 21:30:53

Aldax, that missed seering is going to *wreck* both the humans and wolves, I think. :lol:
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Re: Card Stock - Dead Chat

Postby Gungnir888 » 07 Apr 2017, 04:39:05

It's definitely going to play havoc with the theorycrafting! :twisted:

I like the format of the game, but I'm concerned that a bad power division could cause multiple replays to swing pretty wildly. One shot powers for the most part balance it, but I'd be curious to have seen it play out with one of the stronger roles on the wolf team.

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Re: Card Stock - Dead Chat

Postby Gungnir888 » 07 Apr 2017, 11:46:48

It will be too beautiful if FCM and zark get to claim they were the seered pair of humans.

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Re: Card Stock - Dead Chat

Postby Aldax » 07 Apr 2017, 13:20:36

I feel incredibly bad, I have missed votes before but never like this. I was intending to send my targets at noon, but I got busy until EOD and the voting just slipped from my mind.

If the humans lose: I feel really really sorry

If the wolves lose: In your face, furheads
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Re: Card Stock - Dead Chat

Postby Ryvvn » 07 Apr 2017, 13:52:23

Gungnir888 wrote:It will be too beautiful if FCM and zark get to claim they were the seered pair of humans.

They may always be fearful of even just one potential seer'd human waiting in the wings to out them. I think in the end everyone will just chalk about continued no claims to those players being perhaps yourself and tonight's maul victim. I do wonder if anyone will even suspect that Aldax may have not used his ability...?

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Re: Card Stock - Dead Chat

Postby Okaros » 07 Apr 2017, 15:05:57

Ryvvn wrote:I do wonder if anyone will even suspect that Aldax may have not used his ability...?


Zark was jokingly hinting at the possibility in the wolf thread, so he may seriously consider it later.
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Re: Card Stock - Dead Chat

Postby Ryvvn » 07 Apr 2017, 20:32:58

Welcome Admetus and Jrsthethird.

Shame on that switch, Jrs.

Pity that the wolves wanted you to die today either way, Admetus.

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Re: Card Stock - Dead Chat

Postby Jrsthethird » 07 Apr 2017, 21:43:47

Ryvvn wrote:Priest aldax either forgot or chose not to use his power while detained on day 3.


God this looks terrible for the humans. Two of the more powerful roles were mauled early, and the other one that was known was wasted.

It's not over yet, but damn. They got really lucky with their mauls.

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Re: Card Stock - Dead Chat

Postby Ryvvn » 09 Apr 2017, 20:33:32

Welcome hellheart and stdio!

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Re: Card Stock - Dead Chat

Postby Hellheart » 09 Apr 2017, 20:46:31

BS targeting me tilted me hard. There's no realistic way I step back and look at other wolf pairings at that point.

I think Zark should have picked rekard as his convert. That would have been truly brilliant.

I was honestly willing to go with rekard if he strongly stated that Zark was probably scum, and I might have been able to come around to a Zark-FCM pairing because of that. It would have been really difficult though.

Glad I was right about FCM.

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Re: Card Stock - Dead Chat

Postby Ryvvn » 09 Apr 2017, 21:18:36

FCM wins the game for the wolves today if she can correctly guess ChrisWulf's role; if she does, I'll just end day early and close out the game.

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Re: Card Stock - Dead Chat

Postby Admetus » 10 Apr 2017, 00:28:25

The delay on lynch information hurts the humans, but also the occasional death avoidance hurts the humans. Day 6, and three lynch-related deaths have happened, sometimes killing people who weren't voted for by the village. This means the voting record is developing almost not at all. This is really, really hard for the village.

[+] Lynch effectiveness
Day 1 voted rekard to the lynch. We got his faction, so yay.
Day 2 had no meaningful vote record. We got a vigilante strike on someone unrelated.
Day 3 voted JRS to the lynch, and we got his faction, again yay.
Day 4 voted Blindsniper to the lynch, we didn't get his faction. We got a vigilante strike on someone unrelated.
Day 5 voted FCM to the lynch, and it's pretty likely on aggregate (regardless if she's going for sacrifice play or for the win) that we'll get no faction, just another vigilante strike.


It doesn't matter if "there are still ways for the humans to kill wolves" if the voting record is disrupted so heavily. The mauls still proceed steadily and without any real restriction, but the lynch is apparently only 50% effective.

Usually the wolves have to be cornered, and luck is somewhat important to starting the snowball -- but if lynch deaths are unreliable, it's very easy for humans to fixate on people who avoid the lynch, rather than people who are guilty of anything other than missing their vig shot.

I honestly think we'd be approaching a more balanced game if the wolves only mauled every other night. It would still be high variance, with all the potential vigilante strikes, though.


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