Shaka, when the walls fell

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Okaros
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Re: Shaka, when the walls fell

Postby Okaros » 24 Oct 2013, 17:20:29

DastardlyOldMan wrote:Had real fun working with that team, and Okaros - very, very excellent analysis on the player/faction stuff. It was fun to watch you go crazy-paranoid and then trying to explain that maybe you had gone off the deep end ~diplomatically.


The paranoia was somewhat deliberate and quite fun for me on my end. The ups-and-downs of the paranoia were fun and I figured if there was a game to let that run rampant it would be this one. :) It was definitely fun working with you (and Augie/MEM/Ryvvn/Secret-Traitor-Ryvvn).

(Also, I was cracking up at times about how right I was managing to be in many cases as far as team associations went but how horribly wrong I was on my guessing who the other council leaders were. ;) )

Unfortunately, it turns out that our team was the one team that had absolutely nothing going on in that aspect: No special win condition's except for the Spy one, and judging from the powers thread Augie doesn't appear to have been playing the spy game at all. On any other team my paranoia would have been far more justified. Heck, I was part of a hunter/prey pair and had no idea I was even being hunted. :lol:



I really liked the theme and concept. My feelings on the actual implementation are far more mixed/tangled. I'll see if I can put some constructive thoughts together on it tomorrow.
I kind of assume Okaros is out to backstab me until proven otherwise. - DOM

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Re: Shaka, when the walls fell

Postby Ryvvn » 24 Oct 2013, 17:26:30

Okaros wrote:
DastardlyOldMan wrote:Had real fun working with that team, and Okaros - very, very excellent analysis on the player/faction stuff. It was fun to watch you go crazy-paranoid and then trying to explain that maybe you had gone off the deep end ~diplomatically.

It was definitely fun working with you (and Augie/MEM/Ryvvn/Secret-Traitor-Ryvvn).

Dammit, I wasn't a traitor! :cry:

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Re: Shaka, when the walls fell

Postby Okaros » 24 Oct 2013, 18:48:02

Ryvvn wrote:Dammit, I wasn't a traitor! :cry:


That's just what a Secret Commie Traitor-Vampire would say! :evil:
I kind of assume Okaros is out to backstab me until proven otherwise. - DOM

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Re: Shaka, when the walls fell

Postby Omega » 24 Oct 2013, 20:59:46

DastardlyOldMan wrote:Trying to figure out from Visigoth's power description if he's immune to nightkills - not sure how winning ties helps with nightkills, that was somewhat ambiguous. Otherwise, I'm not sure why he would've handed victory to Hellheart like that, unless he actually knew that HH wasn't getting the nightkill each night.

Visigoth would win any tied lynch (he did in fact win the game as a result) and was immune to non-maul night kills. If he had been mauled, he would have died, baring some other power in play.

DastardlyOldMan wrote:Still very unclear to me how the maul rotation worked - I feel like I'm missing a giant rules section that puts everything together, but maybe rereading the roles will help me figure that one out. Day 4 and Day 12 mauls in a 4-faction game seemed very sparse.

Noted below.

DastardlyOldMan wrote:I saw a lot of notes that the lock-faction communication was OP'd - it was definitely powerful, right up until about the second time that I used it and it was repurposed and then no team had enough players to make it worthwhile. . . End-game? I'd much rather have had the near-complete immunity to lynch-and-night-kills that everyone else seemed to have. I felt *completely* ineffectual in the end game, even with my powerup (and looking at the other powerups, no frikkin' wonder - Visigoth had a vote manipulation power worth double mine, but without my usage restrictions. . . :roll: )

This was a bad power. It will not be back.

DastardlyOldMan wrote:Our team power not reporting all of our nighttime visitors seemed like some false-advertisement - the description of that might have been better served as reporting the-first-of or one-of or the like, but not a huge deal in the end. Also not sure how much I liked the RNG-block-aspect; maybe trimming that to "it always protects a person the first time, but then that person is no longer protected" would've suited similar balance issues without leaving our fate up to dice rolls (I'm not a huge fan of dice rolls in any of these). Tough to say.

Coin flips will be avoided in future games.

DastardlyOldMan wrote:Interesting game - my attention definitely wandered on this one, and I have to say that the break(s) - combined with the Klingons seeming to have full control of the lynch, and having waited 8 days since our last maul - it dropped significantly at the end. There were some fun components and fun days, but overall, I just wasn't feeling this one as much.

Yes, Klingons had too many mauls, certainly disenfranchised other teams.

DastardlyOldMan wrote:Adding vote manipulation as power-ups was probably not the best option - it really, really, really felt like the day votes just didn't matter, but again, maybe that's because mine was an absolute pittance compared to the others out there. One of the core themes of TWG is that the ~villagers have power over the lynch. Take away that power - repeatedly - and I'm going to get very disheartened. Part of that is why I kept going after the Klingons - I honestly expected both Furin and CAD to survive all of the lynch efforts, but at that point, I didn't really care anymore and just wanted to get the game finished with, and that attitude pretty much carried through to the end.

I would point out that in a Mayhem game there are no villagers. There are no wolves. Quizzically, the Federation didn't even really use their vote manipulations until the end. Early day lynches were largely true votes.

DastardlyOldMan wrote:Next question: Visigoth kept making night-visits to us toward end-game (myself and Okaros). Visigoth doesn't have a night-power. Once might have been a maul, but I'm still not sure what those were? Did Visigoth have another power-up beyond the one identified? Because of the dferrantino-SNAFU?

Yes, Visigoth was using dferr's swap power.

DastardlyOldMan wrote:Thanks for the game Omega - some things I definitely felt were out-of-balance (but I see some of them raised in here already), but I enjoyed the middle section of it very much (the part that I was actually paying attention to). Had real fun working with that team, and Okaros - very, very excellent analysis on the player/faction stuff. It was fun to watch you go crazy-paranoid and then trying to explain that maybe you had gone off the deep end ~diplomatically.

Thanks DOM. This game was larger in scope than my previous ones, incorporated a number of different game play mechanics and tried to include some additional sub plots. Some things worked. Others didn't. I actually really liked what you did in the Elemental game and may have to get back with you on that for incorporation to Q's next adventure.

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Re: Shaka, when the walls fell

Postby Omega » 24 Oct 2013, 21:00:17

Okaros wrote:
I really liked the theme and concept. My feelings on the actual implementation are far more mixed/tangled. I'll see if I can put some constructive thoughts together on it tomorrow.


Mine too!

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Re: Shaka, when the walls fell

Postby DastardlyOldMan » 25 Oct 2013, 06:45:58

Realizing that Visigoth was given that power as a ~fix to dferrantino, I think that's something I would've mentioned to the rest of the teams. The fact that someone got a "free" powerup without anyone else knowing is tough to counter.

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Re: Shaka, when the walls fell

Postby Omega » 25 Oct 2013, 08:07:38

DastardlyOldMan wrote:Realizing that Visigoth was given that power as a ~fix to dferrantino, I think that's something I would've mentioned to the rest of the teams. The fact that someone got a "free" powerup without anyone else knowing is tough to counter.


The situation was a bit unexpected, yes.

But I wouldn't have announced to everyone (until their death) if Visigoth had gotten the powerup for killing Okaros, or Silarin Prinn for the Bajoran. Also, CAD got a powerup for the spy mission completion.

Do you think I should have announced all powerups as they happened?

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Re: Shaka, when the walls fell

Postby DastardlyOldMan » 25 Oct 2013, 08:11:18

Omega wrote:
DastardlyOldMan wrote:Realizing that Visigoth was given that power as a ~fix to dferrantino, I think that's something I would've mentioned to the rest of the teams. The fact that someone got a "free" powerup without anyone else knowing is tough to counter.


The situation was a bit unexpected, yes.

But I wouldn't have announced to everyone (until their death) if Visigoth had gotten the powerup for killing Okaros, or Silarin Prinn for the Bajoran. Also, CAD got a powerup for the spy mission completion.

Do you think I should have announced all powerups as they happened?

I think with the spies, we all knew something was going on. It's unclear what the benefit of spy-hunting was to the non-spies, so I'm not sure why the GM-directive on several days was "find them" (other than don't trust the GM). But yeah, we all "got" that the last spy got a powerup without you having to really say anything. Not sure how I would've handled the other two - but then again, that's one of the reasons I generally avoid the super-secret-side missions.

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Re: Shaka, when the walls fell

Postby Okaros » 25 Oct 2013, 15:36:11

Okaros wrote:I really liked the theme and concept. My feelings on the actual implementation are far more mixed/tangled. I'll see if I can put some constructive thoughts together on it tomorrow.


Okay, lets give this a shot:

I like the overall "feel"/flow fairly well, particularly at the start and transitioning in the middle. The transition from middle to end-game (Days 7-9) felt a bit off, and end-game (Day 10+) was disappointing in several ways.


Some specific thoughts/suggestions:
-) I thought finding the non-Garak sociopaths was a bit too easy, mostly due to the Council being willing/able to "out" a threatened team member. Garak, on the other hand, was a *great* semi-sociopathic role. I'd suggest either doing more embedded sociopaths like that next time or, alternatively, keeping entirely silent about their presence at all (and perhaps specifically noting that teams may not be the same size to provide more explicit "cover" for them).

-) Some overpowered/unfun powers have already been mentioned, but I'd like to highlight a couple of *under*powered/unfun items:
My passive seer result power was neat from an analysis aspect but ultimately not particularly powerful.since it only applied to faction seers and had no chance of seeing spy seer results, it was only good for identifying the other factions, something that, while useful, is not nearly as powerful as a seer would be in a "normal" game. If it makes a return sometime, I'd suggest adding a minor active component to it, such as a minor vote manipulation (perhaps something one-shot?) related to the people who had been seered. This would keep the power from being completely useless once the seers are dead and would also give whoever has it something to actually *do*. Even a passive nightkill immunity is more interesting/active than that passive seer power since there's gameplay directly involving the power-holder that can happen (i.e. deliberately making yourself a nightkill target to soak attacks that might go elsewhere).

Seering in general felt pretty weak overall since at best only general natures of abilities were revealed. The seer results could probably have been expanded to include actual power details, which would have made the results more useful and provided more room for countering people's abilities.

The one-shot lynch protection and vigs/nightkills actually seemed underpowered as well. The number of night-kill immunities/target swaps/power blocks/etc... in play made single-use powers like these much weaker than they otherwise would be, particularly given the permanent/persistent nature of a lot of the counters, particularly given the fact that were a sociopath with a repeating night-kill in play as well.

Some of the power upgrades that happened resulted in some fairly unfun situations. Coupling strong manipulation powers with strong defensive powers feels like a very poor mix since it leads to the perception of choices not mattering. Even if there remains a technical way out, those sorts of situations frequently require GM-level knowledge on the part of the players trying to counterplay those combinations. For example, Visi could have used his vote swap to redirect Furin's vote and turned those giant votebombs to his own ends, but Visi would've have had to know the details of Furin's power ahead of time actually do that.

-) Having the Spy missions/mechanics be completely independent of everything else felt weird/unfun, particularly with the repeated GM emphasis being made on finding them. Stripping the bonus kill/seer/etc... powers from the spies themselves and pushing more of that back to the team could have been an opportunity for some neat team vs. team play that could have also provided potential avenues for alternative *team* victory conditions as well (examples: each team has a one-use maul and is told that if they use it on an enemy spy they'll get a bonus, or the spy and the seer are not the same role and the seer results contain clues the spy could use to identify other spies, thus encouraging the spy to suggest specific targets for seering or mauling).

-) I was actually a little disappointed to discover that the team goals really were all the same and that the only deviations were basically sociopathic in nature. Having each team with some kind of alternative to the normal parity victory would have made late-mid/end game *far* more interesting I think, since it would have led to a less predictable-by-others set of voting patterns.


Overall I *did* have fun and enjoyed myself through most of the game, so thnk you very much for running it Omega. :)
I kind of assume Okaros is out to backstab me until proven otherwise. - DOM


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