Shaka, when the walls fell

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Re: Shaka, when the walls fell

Postby Admetus » 18 Oct 2013, 12:38:51

Subject: Night 9

FurinMirado wrote:If we take out someone today and maul a Romulan tonight that leaves us with 2 people. How will we escape being lynched tomorrow?

Edit1: I'm just saying, if Day 10 starts with 2 Klingons they're going to band together to either lynch you or me.

And some other team will have the maul. The Klingons would have a strong risk of getting eliminated because they wouldn't have a vote advantage, and might not have a maul protection. I know Clearasday is trying to preserve (and maybe even prefer) a win with Hellheart, but he's not selling it in a way that makes sense to someone in FurinMirado's position.

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Re: Shaka, when the walls fell

Postby Omega » 18 Oct 2013, 12:59:21

Fur in can't use how power today, he's got to save it for a day when they don't have the mail.

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Re: Shaka, when the walls fell

Postby Admetus » 18 Oct 2013, 13:52:03

Haha, that's some funny autocorrect there. Or you're very very drunk for an early Friday afternoon. ;)

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Re: Shaka, when the walls fell

Postby Omega » 18 Oct 2013, 14:03:29

Autocorrect.

Though, I'm in Chicago for the ND game this weekend, so I will be tomorrow!

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Re: Shaka, when the walls fell

Postby sphenodont » 18 Oct 2013, 14:55:07

Omega wrote:Though, I'm in Chicago for the ND game this weekend, so I will be tomorrow!


Doh. If I'd known that earlier, maybe we could have had a mini-meet or something.

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Re: Shaka, when the walls fell

Postby Mortus » 18 Oct 2013, 16:56:48

Hellheart is in fine form this game. We better kill him first next game. :mrgreen:

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Re: Shaka, when the walls fell

Postby Rictus » 21 Oct 2013, 15:23:43

Is this game still on? :D
Charming, to the last.
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Re: Shaka, when the walls fell

Postby Admetus » 21 Oct 2013, 17:06:33

Ouch. Visigoth sure has had bad luck recently.

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Re: Shaka, when the walls fell

Postby rekard » 21 Oct 2013, 17:50:19

What? You gave Furin night time immunity AND that vote powerup? That made him unlynchable for exactly two days on top of night time immunity. At least it should have had a cooldown or just one use. Even if the Romulans had been convinced to vote for Furin the first time, it wouldn't have mattered. That powerup basically gave the Klingons TWO day mauls. These last two days of game were a utter waste. Votes never mattered and if he had not been on the spot for a lynch(thanks to me mostly) he would have won the game without breaking a sweat.

Sigh. Also the board lock should have been be only be able to affect a team once. A forum locked twice made it was awfully annoying.

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Re: Shaka, when the walls fell

Postby Okaros » 21 Oct 2013, 18:11:46

Admetus wrote:Future Okaros: They're not always out to get you. Sometimes the coincidence is a coincidence.


Lies! :lol: They clearly *were* out to get me!

On the plus side, at least I was (somewhat) right about Ryvvn. And my veering off into incorrect speculation thankfully resulted in a single misplay (wasting Augie's seering on Ryvvn)


Hrm. Omega, why didn't we (Romulans) get notified about dferr swapping DOM on Night 3? Or CAD seering me on Night 7? :?


And holy crap, *that's* what the Klingons have been sitting on? I'll echo rekard a bit: That vote power combined with night-time kill immunity is amazing. And with CAD with full GA immunity... What an overwhelming advantage heading into end-game.



Finally: Did Augie use any of the spy powers (I didn't see any usages in the night powers thread)? And was my power ever eligible to catch the results from spy-power seerings?
I kind of assume Okaros is out to backstab me until proven otherwise. - DOM

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Re: Shaka, when the walls fell

Postby rekard » 21 Oct 2013, 19:35:50

Basically Furin turned basically into unlynchable and unmaulable for two days. It is just not good that no one had a chance against him really.

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Re: Shaka, when the walls fell

Postby Omega » 21 Oct 2013, 20:41:48

A couple of general thoughts,

a) As we learned in a prior Mayhem game, Mute powers are not so good, they're not fun, that was a huge mistake on my part.
b) The forum lock did not work as anticipated.What I wanted to get at was a Communications disruption power that shook the confidence of the board. However, along with "a" above, total mutes are not fun.
c) The Spies were never working against their teams. While they had their own goal, it was certainly in order to further the interests of their team (they had completely separate Vig for goodness sake, and spy actions resolved totally separately from normal actions, so any modifications wouldn't have applied)
d) Team powers did and didn't work. The Federation power actually would be really strong now because Furin's power and CAD's power wouldn't work against them. Hellheart's still would.
e) The Klingon team power was overpowered. I like the idea to make up for their lack of a Seer, but it should have been 1/3.
f) I still like the Council, but I needed to add a certain uncertainty to that too.
g) Anonymous PMs through the GM are a pain. I might make "Computer" account open to anyone for this purpose going forward. ICB and I have abused it enough, might as well let you guys too.

A specific thought or two,
1) CAD didn't have a Seer power. Korax was a cover. That said, I assumed he would lie about the federation info he was getting and share that with the Klingons.
2) rekard, Furin's lynch immunity is subject to a 50% check as he's a former council member
3) AVS' power suffered from the same problems as "a" and "b" above.
4) Okaros - No. you wouldn't have caught spy activity. Only Ozy got spy activity results.

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Re: Shaka, when the walls fell

Postby Admetus » 22 Oct 2013, 14:06:15

Is DOM on post restriction? He's got a lot of posts up, as Visigoth points out. Your night actions thread didn't show a coin-flip fail or anything.

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Re: Shaka, when the walls fell

Postby Omega » 22 Oct 2013, 14:40:56

Clarified.

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Re: Shaka, when the walls fell

Postby Admetus » 22 Oct 2013, 15:18:53

He has to pass a check to cast the swap and another one to make the swap do anything? Yikes!

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Re: Shaka, when the walls fell

Postby Omega » 22 Oct 2013, 15:47:44

Admetus wrote:He has to pass a check to cast the swap and another one to make the swap do anything? Yikes!


All night time powers against Romulans have a 50% check. Where do you see a second check?

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Re: Shaka, when the walls fell

Postby Admetus » 22 Oct 2013, 16:02:28

Visgoth Swap – Romulan 50% Check: Fails

Visigoth (Dferrantino) (Swap 2) -> Okaros & FurinMirado (Okaros - 50% Check wins)

Oh, I thought this was two checks. But I guess it was just a summary, phrased differently?

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Re: Shaka, when the walls fell

Postby Omega » 22 Oct 2013, 17:00:39

Right, same 50% flip. That was phrased terribly by me.

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Re: Shaka, when the walls fell

Postby Okaros » 22 Oct 2013, 17:03:32

Please tell me Visi used his power to move CAD onto Furin, PLEASE. :lol:


Edit: Wait, so Visi didn't switch CAD... As much as I love the notion of CAD betraying Furin, his vote-change showed up at 20:00:01? Shouldn't that not count?
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Re: Shaka, when the walls fell

Postby Omega » 22 Oct 2013, 17:46:27

Wouldn't have mattered, but you're correct. I missed the second there!

Would have made the votes

Furin (5) DOM, HH, Visi, Visi (+1), Furin
DOM (3) CAD, +2 CAD Power

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Re: Shaka, when the walls fell

Postby Admetus » 22 Oct 2013, 17:47:51

I thought your night thread said CAD's +2 is turned off, anyways.

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Re: Shaka, when the walls fell

Postby Omega » 22 Oct 2013, 17:48:51

It did, that was a mistake, I got a PM from him activating it

He sent at 16:59.

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Re: Shaka, when the walls fell

Postby FurinMirado » 22 Oct 2013, 18:05:08

Interesting, so CAD really was on my team the whole time. Still curious as to why he voted for me at the last second.

The good news is he can GA protect himself and maul someone tonight. So he just needs to avoid being lynched and he's good.

Edit1: Damn, so the Feds win if the game is tied. Looks like everyone has to lynch Visigoth today. Is it just me or did that post just win the game for CAD? I mean, everyone is bound to go after Visigoth now to avoid a Fed win. So if CAD successfully mauls DOM tonight, Klingon Win.
Last edited by FurinMirado on 22 Oct 2013, 18:08:11, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Shaka, when the walls fell

Postby Omega » 22 Oct 2013, 18:06:38

FurinMirado wrote:Interesting, so CAD really was on my team the whole time. Still curious as to why he voted for me at the last second.

The good news is he can GA protect himself and maul someone tonight. So he just needs to avoid being lynched and he's good.


He can't GA himself tonight, as he blocked a maul last night with it. A successful usage will cause a 1 day cooldown.

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Re: Shaka, when the walls fell

Postby FurinMirado » 22 Oct 2013, 18:09:04

Omega wrote:
FurinMirado wrote:Interesting, so CAD really was on my team the whole time. Still curious as to why he voted for me at the last second.

The good news is he can GA protect himself and maul someone tonight. So he just needs to avoid being lynched and he's good.


He can't GA himself tonight, as he blocked a maul last night with it. A successful usage will cause a 1 day cooldown.

Ah, I did not realize that. That's what I get for only skimming the threads. :lol:

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Re: Shaka, when the walls fell

Postby FurinMirado » 22 Oct 2013, 18:16:57

Wow, there are a lot of powers in play. I'll hold off on speculation except that I still believe Visigoth is going to end up lynched today. There's no way they risk a Federation win.

It will be interesting to see if CAD falls to a night attack or if he's even going to be successful in his own night kill. It looks like he'll have only a 50% chance of killing DOM, is that correct?

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Re: Shaka, when the walls fell

Postby Admetus » 22 Oct 2013, 18:23:50

Hate to spoil that part if you haven't gotten to it yet, Furin, but CAD isn't going for a Klingon win. If Hellheart is still alive at two people, he'll have a sociopath/lover's victory. If they somehow manage to lynch Hellheart (not going to happen) then a Klingon win would be back on the table.

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Re: Shaka, when the walls fell

Postby Okaros » 22 Oct 2013, 18:24:41

FurinMirado wrote:It will be interesting to see if CAD falls to a night attack or if he's even going to be successful in his own night kill. It looks like he'll have only a 50% chance of killing DOM, is that correct?


Yup. The Romulan power is that of the RNG. :roll: Witness its failure to defend me, first by blocking the power that would've saved me and then failing to block the maul itself. :lol:



Paths forward from today that I see for DOM (I'm biased, sue me :D ):

Day 11: Lynch CAD (with at least Visi on-board, requires Visi's vote manip to beat CAD's trio of votes), no maul. Cross fingers and hope Hellheart's night-kill fails due to either targeting the now-dead CAD or from Romulan teampower.
Day 12: Make any deal possible to lynch someone other than himself. Maul the other.

Day 11: Lynch HH, Visi can shift CAD back onto HH to ensure HH dies. CAD has to maul to Visi to avoid loss via tie-breaker on Day 12. Results in Day 12 DOM vs. CAD staredown. Uncertain results?

Day 11: Lynch Visi, CAD mauls DOM and super-bonus win for CAD if HH doesn't night-kill him (and horrible torture for HH if he doesn't)

Day 11: Lynch DOM. :roll:
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Re: Shaka, when the walls fell

Postby FurinMirado » 22 Oct 2013, 18:31:33

Admetus wrote:Hate to spoil that part if you haven't gotten to it yet, Furin, but CAD isn't going for a Klingon win. If Hellheart is still alive at two people, he'll have a sociopath/lover's victory. If they somehow manage to lynch Hellheart (not going to happen) then a Klingon win would be back on the table.

I tried to skim through the important stuff. I thought getting Hellheart out alive was a bonus win on top of the Klingon win. So are they mutually exclusive?

Like I said, waaay too many rules for me to read it all in one sitting.


I did enjoy the hell out of this, Omega. Thanks for running it.

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Re: Shaka, when the walls fell

Postby rekard » 22 Oct 2013, 18:40:01

A 6th maul for the Klingons? I would understand if they didn't have death immunities or protections but it seems a bit much. On top of that they got vote manipulation, night immunities, night protections.

Cardassians got one maul, a restricted vig kill, a night immunity that could kill other members of their own team and their seer was basically useless. What could have my team done against them?

Even if Klingons didn't have a seer, I think it has overcompensated by now. Specially since the maul is more powerful than a nightkill (since it is not a solo kill).

That part lacks balance. It was just luck they got killed by two vigs, but they have had too much control of the game. Through the vote manipulations and mauls they controlled 6 deaths. Even with a missed maul.

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Re: Shaka, when the walls fell

Postby Omega » 22 Oct 2013, 19:00:59

You are absolutely correct.

That is one of my first take aways from this game. next time, I may even make the Klingons 1/4.

Or I'll just scrap that Team Power altogether.

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Re: Shaka, when the walls fell

Postby rekard » 22 Oct 2013, 20:02:46

1 maul every 3 days works I would say. The other teams would get 2 mauls before Klingons get their 4th.

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Re: Shaka, when the walls fell

Postby Omega » 22 Oct 2013, 20:39:48

Yeah. I learned a lot from this game.

Including: don't give Hellheart a PM power. He's a chatty bastard! :lol:

Sociopaths were underpowered overall.

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Re: Shaka, when the walls fell

Postby Omega » 23 Oct 2013, 17:30:23

True Vote Count

Clearasday (5) DastardlyOldMan, Visigoth, +1 Power Vote (CAD Swap by Visigoth) +2 Power Votes (CAD's Vote worth 3)
DastardlyOldMan (1) Hellheart, Clearassday, -1 Power Vote (CAD Swap by Visigoth)

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Re: Shaka, when the walls fell

Postby rekard » 23 Oct 2013, 17:43:03

Oh the classic vote manipulation reversal.

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Re: Shaka, when the walls fell

Postby FurinMirado » 23 Oct 2013, 17:43:56

Yeah Clearasday, you should have gone for the Klingon win. Backstabbing me near the endgame traditionally doesn't go well for the backstabber. Just ask Sphenodont. :lol:

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Re: Shaka, when the walls fell

Postby Omega » 23 Oct 2013, 17:54:26

That might have been the most influential vote swap ever.

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Re: Shaka, when the walls fell

Postby Okaros » 23 Oct 2013, 18:05:16

And if Visi goes for Hellheart, that's a win for DOM:

Visi lynches Hellheart and use his vote swap to force it to happen one way or another. DOM should, in theory, go along with it. DOM mauls Visi, presto, last-man-standing is DOM.


If not... Omega, what happens if it's Visi vs. Hellheart tomorrow? Visi wins, yeah?
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Re: Shaka, when the walls fell

Postby Omega » 23 Oct 2013, 19:32:44

Well, I'm out of Day Thread titles...

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Re: Shaka, when the walls fell

Postby Ryvvn » 23 Oct 2013, 20:27:41

Omega wrote:Well, I'm out of Day Thread titles...

Your ending day title could be, "Q the Fat Lady"

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Re: Shaka, when the walls fell

Postby Ryvvn » 23 Oct 2013, 20:32:07

Welp, looks like everyone's all locked in!

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Re: Shaka, when the walls fell

Postby Okaros » 23 Oct 2013, 21:39:34

Omega wrote:Well, I'm out of Day Thread titles...


You left out "Q Who?" I think?
I kind of assume Okaros is out to backstab me until proven otherwise. - DOM

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Re: Shaka, when the walls fell

Postby Clearasday » 24 Oct 2013, 00:07:42

FurinMirado wrote:Yeah Clearasday, you should have gone for the Klingon win. Backstabbing me near the endgame traditionally doesn't go well for the backstabber. Just ask Sphenodont. :lol:

Here's the thoughts on the backstab. Yeah, I shouldn't have. The problem was that on multiple occasions I was 'warned' to not share the information that I'd gleaned, or that I was a spy. And I was also told in the following PM that I could not win with both you and Hellheart alive. I had to kill one of you.

I asked if I could win with you both alive:
Omega wrote:Funny you should ask that...

I wrote the win condition for all the spies, you happened to be the one that won. I agree it isn't in keeping with the Klingon personality, but, I think for the purposes of the game and some semblance of factional parity, you would need to eliminate any witnesses... (dferrantino/Motus/AVS would have.)


Then I asked if I could still win with you even though my mission was to get Hellheart out, and then this clarification came in a tad too late:
Omega wrote:I feel terrible that I missed this question.... But yes, you could have still won with Furin. Until you killed him. You monster.


I really still had the sense that you weren't on my team. Especially after Ozy and rekard turned up against each other. Also, why would you have outted that I was the spy to the thread? That's what sealed the deal. Oh and never trust FurinMirado. And I mistakenly thought Hellheart and I had it in the bag with your death, not realising that 2v1v1 does not a parity make apparently.
THERE IS NO JUSTICE, THERE IS JUST CLEARASDAY.

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Re: Shaka, when the walls fell

Postby Clearasday » 24 Oct 2013, 08:36:23

But yeah, I take the blame for the Klingon eradication.
THERE IS NO JUSTICE, THERE IS JUST CLEARASDAY.

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Re: Shaka, when the walls fell

Postby Okaros » 24 Oct 2013, 08:54:22

Clearasday wrote:But yeah, I take the blame for the Klingon eradication.


Your betrayal actually didn't matter. Furin was lynched either way thanks to Visi's vote manipulation. Of course, you had no way of knowing that at the time... :twisted:

See this post from Omega laying out what things would have looked like had Omega disallowed your switch to Furin.
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Re: Shaka, when the walls fell

Postby Admetus » 24 Oct 2013, 10:42:33

I don't mind at all, CAD. The Klingons had a good showing, and nobody has a sure thing in these games anyways. We had some good breaks and some bad breaks, and at least we outlasted those dirty Cardassians!

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Re: Shaka, when the walls fell

Postby Omega » 24 Oct 2013, 11:35:45

The game is over. I am working on the final write up now.

DOM is lynched, he had the maul, which is of course invalid.

I assume that HH would vote for Visi and Visi would vote for HH, probably increasing his vote by 1, leading to

Visi (1) HH
HH (1) Visi, +1 Fed Power, -1 HH Power

So I'm flipping the coin...

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Re: Shaka, when the walls fell

Postby Ryvvn » 24 Oct 2013, 11:44:59

Either player deserves the win, but I'm kinda rooting for Hellheart a little....

Also, in case I hadn't said it earlier, great game Omega; thanks for running this! Though I didn't get to play much of it, it was incredibly intriguing to watch unfold.

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Re: Shaka, when the walls fell

Postby DastardlyOldMan » 24 Oct 2013, 14:27:39

Trying to figure out from Visigoth's power description if he's immune to nightkills - not sure how winning ties helps with nightkills, that was somewhat ambiguous. Otherwise, I'm not sure why he would've handed victory to Hellheart like that, unless he actually knew that HH wasn't getting the nightkill each night.

Still very unclear to me how the maul rotation worked - I feel like I'm missing a giant rules section that puts everything together, but maybe rereading the roles will help me figure that one out. Day 4 and Day 12 mauls in a 4-faction game seemed very sparse.

I saw a lot of notes that the lock-faction communication was OP'd - it was definitely powerful, right up until about the second time that I used it and it was repurposed and then no team had enough players to make it worthwhile. . . End-game? I'd much rather have had the near-complete immunity to lynch-and-night-kills that everyone else seemed to have. I felt *completely* ineffectual in the end game, even with my powerup (and looking at the other powerups, no frikkin' wonder - Visigoth had a vote manipulation power worth double mine, but without my usage restrictions. . . :roll: )

Our team power not reporting all of our nighttime visitors seemed like some false-advertisement - the description of that might have been better served as reporting the-first-of or one-of or the like, but not a huge deal in the end. Also not sure how much I liked the RNG-block-aspect; maybe trimming that to "it always protects a person the first time, but then that person is no longer protected" would've suited similar balance issues without leaving our fate up to dice rolls (I'm not a huge fan of dice rolls in any of these). Tough to say.

Interesting game - my attention definitely wandered on this one, and I have to say that the break(s) - combined with the Klingons seeming to have full control of the lynch, and having waited 8 days since our last maul - it dropped significantly at the end. There were some fun components and fun days, but overall, I just wasn't feeling this one as much.

Adding vote manipulation as power-ups was probably not the best option - it really, really, really felt like the day votes just didn't matter, but again, maybe that's because mine was an absolute pittance compared to the others out there. One of the core themes of TWG is that the ~villagers have power over the lynch. Take away that power - repeatedly - and I'm going to get very disheartened. Part of that is why I kept going after the Klingons - I honestly expected both Furin and CAD to survive all of the lynch efforts, but at that point, I didn't really care anymore and just wanted to get the game finished with, and that attitude pretty much carried through to the end.

Next question: Visigoth kept making night-visits to us toward end-game (myself and Okaros). Visigoth doesn't have a night-power. Once might have been a maul, but I'm still not sure what those were? Did Visigoth have another power-up beyond the one identified? Because of the dferrantino-SNAFU?

Thanks for the game Omega - some things I definitely felt were out-of-balance (but I see some of them raised in here already), but I enjoyed the middle section of it very much (the part that I was actually paying attention to). Had real fun working with that team, and Okaros - very, very excellent analysis on the player/faction stuff. It was fun to watch you go crazy-paranoid and then trying to explain that maybe you had gone off the deep end ~diplomatically.

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Re: Shaka, when the walls fell

Postby Admetus » 24 Oct 2013, 14:44:17

Maul was rotating among the non-Klingon groups, including the Sociopaths as a group. Klingons had it every other night.

Klingon (though, what happened with dferrantino's maul order is still a total mystery to me)
Federation
Klingon
Romulan
Klingon
Sociopath
Klingon
Cardassian
Klingon
Federation
Klingon
Romulan


Visigoth got dferrantino's powers because Omega messed up and fully killed him before realizing he should have been just fine. Visigoth was usually visiting to protect you and redirect mauls to the Klingon camp, but that never worked. Hooray for your power, right?


I agree the middle part of the game was the most interesting. There was lots of good drama and puzzle solving while figuring things out. I'm not sure how the end of Mayhem style games can be improved, but it does seem like that's the hard part in keeping up the entertainment.


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