Rules of Gentlemanly Conduct - conditional moves added

[twdog]

Welcome to Game LXIII: Betrayal In A More Civilized Time.

This is a wolf vs. villager game vs. ????, with wolves trying to reach parity with the villagers before they are wiped out, and before ????

The lynch will proceed in the typical way, with End of Day occurring at 7:00PM MST. Voting will end at 7:00:00 PM sharp according to the board clock; votes placed at 7:00:00 and later will not be counted.

Nightime

This game includes a greatly expanded set of night actions, and a gameplay map. In a typical game, only special roles have night actions and those actions are abstract. In this game, all players will explore, interact, and use their powers (if any) during the night on a map representing the game world.

The night is divided up into 12 rounds, and each action has a round cost. Players will PM me a list of actions they’d like to take every night. Please format like this:

round 1, move to location xyz
round 2, wait
round 3, move to location abc
etc ...

If you're unsure how to order your rounds for your objective, just let me know what you're trying to do and I'll see if I can help you with it.

A PM will be sent to you with the results of your actions. Additionally, you will be told of the presence of anyone else in your current location, and the direction they departed in if they leave while you are there or also leaving. Wolves and certain special roles will also be informed of the direction players arrive from.

Action List:

MOVE - cost is 1 round - move from one location to another.
USE - cost is 2 if known, or 4 if not - some locations have special features that can be used by players for a cost of 2 rounds if they know that the item exists. You can also attempt to USE in a location even if you haven't discovered anything there. In this case, the cost is 4 and will be deducted even if the location isn't useable
SEARCH - cost is 4 rounds - can only be performed once per night. SEARCH in a location will reveal one of: nothing, a special item (item may not be usable by you), a special location ability, or a gameplay clue
POWER - cost varies - your role may come with a special power. It’s rules and costs will be in your PM.
FOLLOW - cost is 1 round - you can follow someone to their next location if you are currently in the same location as them. You may either name a person, or simply pick someone randomly. Your previous night results will include who is currently in the same location as you. You can use FOLLOW on any round, and if there is no one to FOLLOW (or the named person is not present), you will WAIT instead. A small number of special roles will be told if they are followed. These roles are not faction dependent. After FOLLOWING someone , you can list a destination and actions, and I'll process as much of it as your round count allows. use conditionals to plot out the rest of your course. Or just FOLLOW someone all night if you want.
WAIT - cost is 1 round - wait 1 round at a location. While waiting, you will observe the movement of people in the location. If someone performs an action besides MOVE or WAIT you will be informed that they “look busy.”

Some special roles will be provided with additional information and have additional night options. Any special options for you will be in your role PM.

The lynch takes place before any night actions, and the maul takes place after all night actions.

You will start the night in the same location as you ended in the night before.

Wounds:

Players can be wounded under certain circumstances. A wound can be in the form of a power usage restriction, or in the form of a player's vote counting for 1/2. Wounds last 24 hours (1 cycle). The wounded player will be informed of the restriction, but it will not be announced in the general day thread. Certain roles and items can protect a player from wounds.

Win conditions:

wolves reach parity with humans: wolf win
wolves exterminated, 1 or more humans exist: human win

Feel free to ask any questions!



----

Edit: I'm now adding the most complex twg game element ever. This is optional. I'm sorry

Data format:

I read your move list PM and turn each round into a line in a CSV file. Then, I run the file through a program to resolve the night. Here’s an example:

1st column is your name
2ed column is the round
3rd column is the action from the list above
4th column is the action parameter. All actions except WAIT have a parameter

Code: Select all

playerName,round,command,parameter
whoever,1,move,airlock A
whoever,2,move,forward Passageway
whoever,3,search,forward Passageway
whoever,4,search,forward Passageway
whoever,5,search,forward Passageway
whoever,6,search,forward Passageway
whoever,7,search,forward Passageway
whoever,8,move,officer mess
whoever,9,use,officer mess
whoever,10,use,officer mess
whoever,11,use,officer mess
whoever,12,use,officer mess

Players are not required to submit actions into this format, although it’s nice if you do. But again, you don’t have to.

Conditional move list:

Prepare yourself for crappiness. Due to time constraints, I can only accept a conditional move if you format your list for my CSV file. I can accept moves in the form of a basic IF-THEN-ELSE statement. To use a conditional use the word EVAL for the action and then provide the expression as the parameter. I going to try to write this for people that have little to no programming experience, so sorry if it's obvious

For IF-THEN-ELSE we first do a “test” to see IF two items are the same or not. We can test either our current location or the presence of a player.

You THEN provide what you want to happen if the test is true, or ELSE what we will do if the test is false. We use a OPERATOR to describe the sort of test we want to do. It’s structured like this:

IF test1 OPERATOR test2 THEN action ELSE other action

There are two operators, == and =!

== means that the items are the same (or equal)
=! means that they are different (or unequal)

We can test two things. Your current location with the word location and, if a player is in the room with the word playerPresent

Here’s an example

Code: Select all

whoever,3,eval,if location == greenhouse then wait else move forward lounge

The conditional part is if location == greenhouse then wait else move forward lounge

In this case we are saying:

IF location (your current location) equals (test passed) forward lounge THEN we will WAIT or ELSE (if the test fails) we will MOVE to forward lounge.

We saw how we can use the location test to determine if we are in a room or not. Here’s how we can use the player test.

Code: Select all

if playerPresent == ravebomb then move security else move cargo a

In this case the “test” is if ravebomb is present. If he is, we want to go security. Otherwise we can be about our business in Cargo A

We can flip the test around with =! operator. For instance that test could be expressed as:

Code: Select all

if playerPresent =! ravebomb then move Cargo A else move security

In this case, if ravebomb is not in the room, we will proceed to Cargo A but if he is we will go to security.

The playerPresent test also can take the word ANY for the test, if you want to see if you are alone or not. Like this:

Code: Select all

if playerPresent == any then wait, else move bridge

Here we are seeing if any players are present. If so, we will wait, otherwise we are moving to the bridge.

a couple of examples:

Code: Select all

use a room if it’s empty, otherwise leave
if playerPresent =! any use gym else move central passageway

Code: Select all

follow rekard if he’s in the room
if playerPresent == rekard follow rekard else wait

You can also use the “location” word as a parameter for a command. Suppose we done a conditional earlier in the list and now we don’t know where we are (as we’re writing, that is) and you want to SEARCH. How can you add the SEARCH parameter when you don’t know where you are? The word LOCATION is a variable. That means that it always represents where you currently are, and changes every round to reflect your new location.

here’s an example of searching using the LOCATION variable

Code: Select all

if playerPresent =! any search location, else wait

capitalization doesn’t matter, but spell and abbreviations do. We can use 7-zArk-7 or 7-zark-7 or 7-ZARK-7 but not 7z7. Likewise, we can’t use “sec” to mean “security”

I’m happy to help you out if this is unclear. It probably is unclear, because I threw this together in like 2 hours. Plus I suck, let’s not forget that part.

---

So there you go, conditionals with a crappy syntax. I’m so sorry everyone

[Hellheart]

Do you have to specify a person to Follow? And will Follow only work on somebody who is in the same location at the start of the night (instead of, for example: Move, Move, Move, [Follow -> Wait] x 9)?

If I encounter a Shoggoth tank, can I push it out of the airlock?

[twdog]

Do you have to specify a person to Follow? And will Follow only work on somebody who is in the same location at the start of the night (instead of, for example: Move, Move, Move, [Follow -> Wait] x 9)?

I had planned for it to require a named player in the same square as you. However, I'm willing to change it. You can use FOLLOW anytime, and it will pick someone randomly to FOLLOW. If you try to FOLLOW in an empty location, you'll WAIT instead.

If I encounter a Shoggoth tank, can I push it out of the airlock?

I'm sorry, Hellheart, I'm afraid I can't do that

GM note: the logic engine sounds oddly muffled

[Hellheart]

Do you have to specify a person to Follow? And will Follow only work on somebody who is in the same location at the start of the night (instead of, for example: Move, Move, Move, [Follow -> Wait] x 9)?

I had planned for it to require a named player in the same square as you. However, I'm willing to change it. You can use FOLLOW anytime, and it will pick someone randomly to FOLLOW. If you try to FOLLOW in an empty location, you'll WAIT instead.

If I encounter a Shoggoth tank, can I push it out of the airlock?

I'm sorry, Hellheart, I'm afraid I can't do that

GM note: the logic engine sounds oddly muffled

Yeah, I like that much better just in terms of what I'd expect to do as a passenger of a ship. I'm kind of glad that I'm not playing HK-47, because I'd probably completely ignore what I should be doing and spend every night following random people just to creep them the hell out.

[twdog]

I've updated the FOLLOW section

[Iron Clad Burrito]

GM note: the logic engine sounds oddly muffled

BILLY MAYS, MASTER! I GAVE YOU BILLY MAYS WON'T YOU GET OUT OF MY HEAD

[Admetus]

I have a few questions. USE sounds interesting. If I USE in a random room without SEARCHing first, that costs 4. Got it. Does any part of the SEARCH action get included in that USE for free? I mean, I assume I at least learn of any special location ability, right?

And if I SEARCH before USE in a room I don't have any reason to believe has a special ability, but it turns out it does, do I get the short version of USE or the 4-turn naive version? So I should plan some conditional actions because I'm probably totally doing that?

Last, why can't I FOLLOW on round 12 (obviously)? If I can MOVE TO CENTRAL PASSAGEWAY on 12, shouldn't someone be able to FOLLOW me there on 12? I must be misunderstanding something because the round 12 restriction doesn't seem obvious to me.

[Okaros]

Is the MOVE action 1 round to move to any other location, or do we have to move to each location in-between first?

For example: Is going from the Central Passageway to the Greenhouse one MOVE action or three?

[twdog]

I have a few questions. USE sounds interesting. If I USE in a random room without SEARCHing first, that costs 4. Got it. Does any part of the SEARCH action get included in that USE for free? I mean, I assume I at least learn of any special location ability, right?

If you USE without SEARCH then you'll discover the USEable item, if any. Other secrets, if any, will not be discovered.

And if I SEARCH before USE in a room I don't have any reason to believe has a special ability, but it turns out it does, do I get the short version of USE or the 4-turn naive version? So I should plan some conditional actions because I'm probably totally doing that?

You won't get the cheap version that night, because the USE cost varies. So in a night, you SEARCH and discover something. Ok, fine, but how many rounds do you allocate to USEing this hypothetical item when you don't know it's cost? Let me think about this; I get what you're trying to do and it makes sense to me. I just need to think how to do it in a deterministic manner.

Last, why can't I FOLLOW on round 12 (obviously)? If I can MOVE TO CENTRAL PASSAGEWAY on 12, shouldn't someone be able to FOLLOW me there on 12? I must be misunderstanding something because the round 12 restriction doesn't seem obvious to me.

I was talking about someone moving on round 12, as in arrive on round 13. I get what you're saying. Yes, you can use FOLLOW on Round 12. I'll drop that bit of wording because it's misleading.

[twdog]

Is the MOVE action 1 round to move to any other location, or do we have to move to each location in-between first?

For example: Is going from the Central Passageway to the Greenhouse one MOVE action or three?

It would be 3 MOVE actions

[Hellheart]

What would you suggest I use for my last 4 moves here?

Round 1 - Move to Airlock A
Round 2 - Move to Forward Passageway
Round 3 - Move to Airlock A
Round 4 - Move to Central Passageway
Round 5 - Move to 1st Class Restaurant
Round 6 - Move to Central Passageway
Round 7 - Move to 1st Class Restaurant
Round 8 - Move to Central Passageway

I'll take two suggestions, Option A and Option B. I'd like them in reverse order (B, A)

[twdog]

And if I SEARCH before USE in a room I don't have any reason to believe has a special ability, but it turns out it does, do I get the short version of USE or the 4-turn naive version? So I should plan some conditional actions because I'm probably totally doing that?

You won't get the cheap version that night, because the USE cost varies. So in a night, you SEARCH and discover something. Ok, fine, but how many rounds do you allocate to USEing this hypothetical item when you don't know it's cost? Let me think about this; I get what you're trying to do and it makes sense to me. I just need to think how to do it in a deterministic manner

Ok, here's what we're going to do. All USEable locations\items now cost 2 rounds to USE instead of "variable." So it's 4 rounds if you haven't found a USEable item and 2 if you have. So full search + discovered use would be 6.

[7-zark-7]

Ok, here's what we're going to do. All USEable locations\items now cost 2 rounds to USE instead of "variable." So it's 4 rounds if you haven't found a USEable item and 2 if you have. So full search + discovered use would be 6.

and

If you USE without SEARCH then you'll discover the USEable item, if any. Other secrets, if any, will not be discovered.

This suggests there are instances where there would be more than one use/item in a given location. Can you confirm?

If not, some questions are pointless. If so...
1) will a search stop once it finds a single use/item in a given location or will you get a complete list of items/things you can do there if you Search?
2) if there is more than one use/item, how is the choice determined (if due to my rakish good looks I can use the mirror of destiny, but can't use the kumquat of inquisition, am I more likely to get the kumquat by default, or do I need to ask really nice-like)?
2B) Does this change if I search, then use, as opposed to simply use?
3) is there any merit in using a location twice in a given turn? (You mentioned we cannot search twice)
4) will any new use/item show up later in the game - IE, if I search the 1st Class Restaurant on day 1, does the menu change on day 2?

Thank you as always, and more in a bit,

7z7

[Admetus]

Just so I'm sure I have this right, let me try restating:

SEARCH = 4 actions

USE = 2 actions if I know what's there before I attempt USE, 4 actions if I'm just trying blind

SEARCH -> USE in the same night = 4+2 actions period. Regardless of whether I know about a special use for the room, don't know about a use for the room, find a use when I SEARCH, or even if I don't find any special room action but my plan says USE -- doesn't matter, it's 4 actions for SEARCH attempt, 2 actions for USE attempt.

[7-zark-7]

Just so I'm sure I have this right, let me try restating:

SEARCH = 4 actions

USE = 2 actions if I know what's there before I attempt USE, 4 actions if I'm just trying blind

SEARCH -> USE in the same night = 4+2 actions period. Regardless of whether I know about a special use for the room, don't know about a use for the room, find a use when I SEARCH, or even if I don't find any special room action but my plan says USE -- doesn't matter, it's 4 actions for SEARCH attempt, 2 actions for USE attempt.

Raising a good point - can we set a conditional based on our findings or lack thereof?

Round 1 - move to Airlock A
Round 2-5 Search Airlock A
<Conditional-A>Round 6 - if something useful to me is found, use it
<Conditional-A>Round 7 - continue using it, use it real good. Oh Baby
<Conditional-A>Round 8-12 - other stuff I presume is of extreme interest, but I don't want to give away all the details here
<Conditional-B>Round 6 - if nothing useful to me is found, I can go about my business, move along to Forward Passageway
<Conditional-B>Round 7-11 - I can't search again, but oh man, I use it in the Forward Passageway (I may not find anything, but that rarely stops me once I get going)
<Conditional-B>Round 12 - move to the officer's mess, where I shall retire spent to an evening of leisure (or at least to think about what I've done)

May I suggest you clean out your in-box now, & setup a forum structure to absorb the insane load you've agreed to take on?

More in a bit,

7z7

[twdog]

This suggests there are instances where there would be more than one use/item in a given location. Can you confirm?

If not, some questions are pointless. If so...
1) will a search stop once it finds a single use/item in a given location or will you get a complete list of items/things you can do there if you Search?
2) if there is more than one use/item, how is the choice determined (if due to my rakish good looks I can use the mirror of destiny, but can't use the kumquat of inquisition, am I more likely to get the kumquat by default, or do I need to ask really nice-like)?
2B) Does this change if I search, then use, as opposed to simply use?
3) is there any merit in using a location twice in a given turn? (You mentioned we cannot search twice)
4) will any new use/item show up later in the game - IE, if I search the 1st Class Restaurant on day 1, does the menu change on day 2?

Thank you as always, and more in a bit,

7z7

Let's talk about what's in the locations a bit. There's basically 3 kinds of things that can be in a location, and more than one kind can be in there at once.

1) quest/role item
Some special roles require items to activate, it may even take multiple items to activate the role. While these items can be found via SEARCH, only the role they're associated with can do anything with them. Everyone else gets a message like "You find The Bar of Foo! But it means nothing to you so you leave it behind" or similar. You can reveal publicly what you found because maybe it's for the seer, but maybe it's for a wolf, so that's a risk you'll have to consider. If it is your item, then you automatically pick it up as part of the SEARCH.

2) hint/power up
These are items that anyone can get. A hint is usually a reveal about a room on the map or some other item. A hint will never reveal someone's identity! A "power up" is a relatively minor one shot ability. For instance, a power up might give you the ability to send someone a PM once, or it might let you inflict a wound. Things that are useful, but one shot, and not as powerful as a full special role. These are also automatically picked up as part of the SEARCH.

If a room contains your quest item and a hint\power up, then you will only get the quest item. There will not be multiple hints\power ups in a location, but multiple quest items is possible. If that happens you will only see one of the quest items, randomly picked. I try to avoid that, but where this stuff shows up is partially driven by player actions. If it isn't your item, you'll see the quest item and take the hint/power up. You will only get one item (hint,power up, role, whatever ...) per night.

There isn't an item in every room, and it's first come first serve, so there's no guarantee you'll find anything at all. If multiple players finish their SEARCH in an item room on the same round, it's given to one of them randomly. The losers are told that the winner got something, but not what. That's in the case of multiple searchers finishing on the same round, if it's multiple searchers finishing on different rounds then they are not told if someone found something.

3) location ability
This is an ability associated with a location, and is activated with USE. Think of abilities as levers or buttons. An ability can do any number of things, for instance, it could add items to the map, give someone a wound, modify your role, or change the map. As an example, in Security there was going to be a lever that locked the door to the Purser's Office. If you had USEed the Security location then nobody was getting in or out of the Purser's Office until someone USEed the Security location again. I dropped that particular ability, because it seemed like a good way for someone to get trapped in the Purser's Office for multiple nights, but it's still a good example of the kind of thing an ability might do. A room would not have more than one ability, and not all rooms have abilities. Because some abilities are “toggles” then USEing multiple times is valid, but most abilities are not toggles. Although it would be funny if you spent 12 turns making a door open and close repeatedly.

USEing blind will discover (and USE) any abilities the location has, whereas SEARCH reveals the USEable abilities, but does not activate it. This is why blind USE is faster, but SEARCH+USE is more thorough.

The Map changes based on player actions. So the map isn’t “restocked” nightly with hints and power ups, but somebody’s actions might cause one to appear. Some quests that multiple stages, and items in the later stages aren’t going to appear until the earlier ones have been completed. Also, moot things are removed. For instance, someone with a special role needs something and it’s on the map. If they get lynched, it will be removed from the map if no one else can use them.

Sorry, that was a rambling. Does that answer your questions?

Just so I'm sure I have this right, let me try restating:

SEARCH = 4 actions

USE = 2 actions if I know what's there before I attempt USE, 4 actions if I'm just trying blind

SEARCH -> USE in the same night = 4+2 actions period. Regardless of whether I know about a special use for the room, don't know about a use for the room, find a use when I SEARCH, or even if I don't find any special room action but my plan says USE -- doesn't matter, it's 4 actions for SEARCH attempt, 2 actions for USE attempt.

That's correct.

It costs 2 rounds to USE a known location ability and if you just got done SEARCHing the room then you now know if there is one. If you SEARCH and there isn't anything USEable but you do the USE command anyway you'll WAIT for 2 rounds instead. The reason you might want to do a blind USE without SEARCH first is to save 2 rounds because undiscovered USE is 4 while SEARCH+discovered USE is 6.

Raising a good point - can we set a conditional based on our findings or lack thereof?

I really want to do conditionals. My original ideas for this concept, even before the Innsmouth game, was to have people writing up complex clever move lists with a ton of conditionals. However, it’s clear now that conditionals get too overwhelming for me to do in a timely manner, unfortunately.

I’ve got a program that tracks player, item, and map state. So, “all” I have to do is remove lynched players, maybe tweak some flavor text, and then let it run the night resolution. However, I still need to get this program all the player moves, and that involves adding each move to a line in a csv file. It doesn’t have to be a csv file, it could be anything. The point is that I need to convert freeform PMs into something machine readable ... and that involves typing. I’m expecting over 240 moves for this cycle. Now, I’m a decently quick typist and I’ve got my trusty Model M, so I’ll have those 240+ lines entered in a reasonable amount of time, but if I do conditionals the amount of lines will balloon up exponentially, and I just don’t have the time.

I’m disappointed because this removes an element I wanted, but I don't see a way around it.

---

I'm happy we have the time to deal with these questions before EOD. I’m really trying to avoid the early problems the innsmouth game had.

[DastardlyOldMan]

I’ve got a program that tracks player, item, and map state. So, “all” I have to do is remove lynched players, maybe tweak some flavor text, and then let it run the night resolution. However, I still need to get this program all the player moves, and that involves adding each move to a line in a csv file. It doesn’t have to be a csv file, it could be anything. The point is that I need to convert freeform PMs into something machine readable ... and that involves typing. I’m expecting over 240 moves for this cycle. Now, I’m a decently quick typist and I’ve got my trusty Model M, so I’ll have those 240+ lines entered in a reasonable amount of time, but if I do conditionals the amount of lines will balloon up exponentially, and I just don’t have the time.

Anything we can do in the PM itself to make your life easier? A certain format that's all ready comma-separated or the like?

[twdog]

thanks for the offer!

Code: Select all

playerName,round,action,target

whoever,1,move,airlock A
whoever,2,move,forward Passageway
whoever,3,search,forward Passageway
whoever,4,search,forward Passageway
whoever,5,search,forward Passageway
whoever,6,search,forward Passageway
whoever,7,move,officer mess
whoever,8,use,officer mess
whoever,9,use,officer mess
whoever,10,use,officer mess
whoever,11,use,officer mess
whoever,12,move,bridge

where "action" is one of the keywords above, and target is a location or person. I wouldn't require that moves be formatted like that because I'm already asking a lot from you all, but I'd certainly appreciate it.

---


I'm considering very limited conditionals, because I really did want them in. What I'm considering is 2 more fields per action for a sort of boolean (true/false) conditional expression.

value1 is one of : playerPresent, playerNotPresent, inLocation, notInLocation
value2 is one of: "name of a player", "name of a location", anyPlayer, noPlayer

if it evals to true, we do the action, if not we do WAIT

so you could do:

Code: Select all

whoever,7,move,officer mess,playerPresent,noPlayer

if you wanted to move to the Officer's Mess unobserved. The location tests would be for people doing a FOLLOW

That's only 2 more fields per line so that's not a crazy amount of extra work. But I'm not going to make an offer to do this until I see what happens with tonights actions. If it takes forever even without any conditionals then I'm not offering it. However, if it goes pretty quick, say an hour, then I'd offer to let people do these limited conditionals.

Also, it would be up to the players if they want to make a post Day 0 change. I don't mind making rule tweaks now, like that USE tweak I did for Hellheart, because nothing has happened yet. I could piss off the players if I start changing the fundamental rules once the game starts going.

[7-zark-7]

I suspect that follow will have some repercussions. If I want to follow ICB (and who doesn't occasionally), but I don't want to follow him throughout the night (because that's just stalking, and it's why we can't have nice things).

Code: Select all

    playerName,round,action,target

    whoever,1,move,airlock A
    whoever,2,move,forward Passageway
    whoever,3,search,forward Passageway
    whoever,4,search,forward Passageway
    whoever,5,search,forward Passageway
    whoever,6,search,forward Passageway
    whoever,7,move,officer mess
    whoever,8,use,officer mess
    whoever,9,use,officer mess
    whoever,10,use,officer mess
    whoever,11,use,officer mess
    whoever,12,move,bridge


value1 is one of : playerPresent, playerNotPresent, inLocation, notInLocation
value2 is one of: "name of a player", "name of a location", anyPlayer, noPlayer

So, let me throw out a scenario:

Code: Select all

7-Zark-7,1,Follow ICB,(I can't list a location as I don't know where he is going)
7-Zark-7,2,Follow ICB,(I can't list a location as I don't know where he is going)
7-Zark-7,3,Follow ICB,(I can't list a location as I don't know where he is going)
7-Zark-7,4,Follow ICB,(I can't list a location as I don't know where he is going)
7-Zark-7,5,search,wherever-I-happen-to-be
7-Zark-7,6,search,wherever-I-happen-to-be
7-Zark-7,7,search,wherever-I-happen-to-be
7-Zark-7,8,search,wherever-I-happen-to-be
7-Zark-7,9,use,wherever-I-happen-to-be
7-Zark-7,10,use,wherever-I-happen-to-be
7-Zark-7,11,move, Uh: north if I can, if not south, hell - let's try west, worst case scenario east,
7-Zark-7,12,move, Uh: north if I can, if not south, hell - let's try west, worst case scenario east,

My choices are complicated as a result of following ICB (hense the restraining order).

Scenario A:
If ICB went Airlock A > Foward Passageway & then started his search for 4 turns, I'd be standing around doing not much of anything for the next two turns, & my result would look kind of like this

7-Zark-7,1,Follow ICB,(Airlock A)
7-Zark-7,2,Follow ICB,(Forward Passage)
7-Zark-7,3,Follow ICB,(ICB is searching, I'm just kind of standing around)
7-Zark-7,4,Follow ICB,(ICB is searching, I'm just kind of standing around)
7-Zark-7,5,search,(Forward Passage)
7-Zark-7,6,search,(Forward Passage)(note, ICB is now done searching)
7-Zark-7,7,search,(Forward Passage)
7-Zark-7,8,search,(Forward Passage - note, ICB may not have left me anything, the barstard)
7-Zark-7,9,use,(damn you ICB)
7-Zark-7,10,use,(damn you ICB)
7-Zark-7,11,move, Uh: north if I can, if not east, hell - let's try west, worst case scenario south (equals Forward Lounge)
7-Zark-7,12,move, Uh: north if I can, if not east, hell - let's try west, worst case scenario south,(equals Heliograph office)

Scenario B, ICB moves to the forward lounge before he starts searching:
7-Zark-7,1,Follow ICB,(Airlock A)
7-Zark-7,2,Follow ICB,(Forward Passage)
7-Zark-7,3,Follow ICB,(Forward Lounge)
7-Zark-7,4,Follow ICB,(ICB is searching, I'm just kind of standing around)
7-Zark-7,5,search,(Forward Lounge)
7-Zark-7,6,search,(Forward Lounge)
7-Zark-7,7,search,(Forward Lounge)(note, ICB is now done searching)
7-Zark-7,8,search,(Forward Lounge- note, ICB may not have left me anything, the barstard)
7-Zark-7,9,use,(damn you ICB)
7-Zark-7,10,use,(damn you ICB)
7-Zark-7,11,move, Uh: north if I can, if not east, hell - let's try west, worst case scenario south (equals Heliograph Office)
7-Zark-7,12,move, Uh: north if I can, if not east, hell - let's try west, worst case scenario south,(equals back to the forward lounge)

It's probably possible to carve out more precise instructions with conditionals, but follow leaves us in an odd spot in a few circumstances especially given wait states (actual wait statements or search/use delays).

I don't really have a suggestion, just am curious if you can expand further upon the conditionals with follow that you've laid out - entirely possible I've missed something (like whatever ICB picked up when I was following him. Do I know anything about his findings, or just that he's there, standing around? Can I tell is he's searching versus using?)

Thanks for the info,

7z7

[twdog]

Do I know anything about his findings, or just that he's there, standing around? Can I tell is he's searching versus using?)

let me start with this while I write something more detailed for the rest.

When you WAIT you see the other people in your location. If they're doing something, you're told they "look busy" but you're not told what they're doing. If you FOLLOW someone, and they don't move, then it's effectively a WAIT and you get the "look busy" message.

[twdog]

I suspect that follow will have some repercussions.

... snip ...


It's probably possible to carve out more precise instructions with conditionals, but follow leaves us in an odd spot in a few circumstances especially given wait states (actual wait statements or search/use delays).

I don't really have a suggestion, just am curious if you can expand further upon the conditionals with follow that you've laid out - entirely possible I've missed something (like whatever ICB picked up when I was following him. Do I know anything about his findings, or just that he's there, standing around? Can I tell is he's searching versus using?)

Thanks for the info,

7z7

Yeah, FOLLOW is in a weird in between space. I’m not thrilled with it, but it adds enough play options that it was good to keep it in.

FOLLOW details:

First, you FOLLOW someone for however many turns. Then you MOVE towards somewhere you name for 1 or more turns. Here’s an example.

Code: Select all

7-Zark-7,1,Follow,ICB
7-Zark-7,2,Follow ICB
7-Zark-7,3,Follow,ICB
7-Zark-7,4,move,cafeteria
7-Zark-7,5,move,cafeteria
7-Zark-7,6,move,cafeteria
7-Zark-7,7,search,cafeteria
7-Zark-7,5,search,cafeteria
7-Zark-7,6,search,cafeteria
7-Zark-7,7,search,cafeteria
7-Zark-7,8,move,Airlock B
7-Zark-7,9,use,Airlock B
7-Zark-7,10,use,Airlock B
7-Zark-7,11,use,Airlock B
7-Zark-7,12,use,Airlock B

this has all been changed. Use conditionals

In this scenario we are going to FOLLOW ICB for 3 rounds, and then try to get to the cafeteria and so on. If you can’t reach the Cafeteria in 3 moves, then the whole rest of the list is aborted and converted to WAITs with you at wherever 3 rounds towards the cafeteria dropped you. You’ll either make in that number of turns or you won’t, and it’s really up to where the person you’re FOLLOWing took you.

The reason that I convert the whole list to WAITs is that if you don’t make it to your destination, but keep going with the action list anyway, you could end up doing something you really don’t want to do. For instance, you might end up in a room that is USEable but the effect is something you don’t want to happen, but you put a USE in the list because you thought you’d be somewhere else.

This does require me to make a manual intervention, to see how close you are to your move target, but that’s a small compromise that I’m willing to make to keep FOLLOW in the game.

[Ryvvn]

The reason that I convert the whole list to WAITs is that if you don’t make it to your destination, but keep going with the action list anyway, you could end up doing something you really don’t want to do. For instance, you might end up in a room that is USEable but the effect is something you don’t want to happen, but you put a USE in the list because you thought you’d be somewhere else.

Might I request that if there is a SEARCH action placed after MOVEs that the SEARCH still function as normal outside of intended room target? I can't imagine there being a bad reason to SEARCH, but I understand your argument for random USE in unintended locations.

Also, a suggestion on conditionals: each player is granted a conditional action for one action line per players already dead; so after night 1, any surviving players may include a conditional statement on up to two of their actions (1 dead lynched, 1 dead mauled). Only after night 6 with 12 players dead would each surviving player be able to put a conditional on each line of action.

[twdog]

RULE CHANGE PROPOSAL

Let’s talk conditionals a bit, because they could add a lot to the game and I really wanted them in anyway. As I said, the problem with conditionals is that they ballon up the amount of lines I have to type. Very unexpectedly, DOM suggested that players could format their results for me in CSV. A couple of people have sent me PMs in that format, so it does look like some of the players are open to it.

How does this strike people as a compromise? For every one of the 12 actions, I’ll allow up to three of the boolean type conditionals I proposed above.That should give you a good measure of flexibility. However, if you use conditionals you have to write up it in csv format yourself. I can provide a number of examples, and give you some help if you’re not sure how to do what you want, but it’s mostly on you.

I feel like if you want to spend the time to come up with a complex action list, then you probably have time to write it out. I mean, you’d have to write it out anyway just to send it to me, so I’m more asking for it to be formated in a particular way.

People without conditionals can submit their action list however they like.

Does that seem fair, or not really?


----


changed the rules, but not like this proposal

[Admetus]

Sure, that's fine. I would have used the CSV format myself if I'd seen it before submitting my moves a while back.

Any reason to limit it to three conditionals? Once you've programmed it in general, I'm not sure if there's much benefit to limiting the number. (Looking at the description, I'd say the most difficult part of the program will be the new interpretation of MOVE that can move towards a room instead of only handling direct links. Reminds me of a Prolog pathfinding thing I wrote in college....)

[twdog]

No particular reason, it just seemed like a decent number. It's two extra fields per conditional so you might find it clunky if there more then a few

If you have conditional action formatting suggestions I'm open to them. If-then-else would be good, but I'm not sure how I would put that in a text file

If you all agree to change the rules then it would revamp the FOLLOW action because you could test for location presence then

[Ryvvn]

If you all agree to change the rules then it would revamp the FOLLOW action because you could test for location presence then

I doubt enough people are going to respond to this before end of Day 0, in fact, you may want to PM some of the more less attentive players to alert them that they may want to utilize their actions for Night 0, since I imagine some players may just go on the assumption that there is no activity (since no lynch, no maul) for Day 0.

oops edit to add: meaning you should just make the decision here, one way or the other, and not leave it up to player choice.


Also, could you please provide a handful of examples for how things would be formatted with conditionals; and even though I've dabbled in game programming, I'd still like it presented in proper formatting with layman's description.

[rekard]

Limit the conditionals so life is simple for GM and the players. It sounds interesting to have all the amount of actoons to do, but also various players here will for sure try to get their cake and eat it too. Allowing too much freedom might make some unintended imbalance or abuse of mechanics that can't be foreseen. You gotta have a tight leash on some things.

Allowing too much follow complexity makes special roles and wolves easier to discover. A wolf can potentially follow 2-3 targets per night since they knkw already their team. Multiply that by the total amount of wolves and you can potentially have the wolves pinpointing who have special roles by day 4 or 5. And well changing some potentially useful rules in the weekend is a bit late.

Also take in account dates and time. Christmas will be in two weeks, so any delay in processing might affect the last days participation.

Don't ask players for agreement on your changes, not enough will respond or read on time. You got some feedback, then well you say what to do. Do what you think is best for your game. Most players here will suggest things that accomodate them, not always for sake of balance hah.

Though, if you change how follow works, can you say it early? I mean, announcing a change tomorrow 3-6 hours before EOD of a Sunday might be inadequate.

Although at the same time, I am not a fan of having to do a special format for things. Got enough of it at work.

[Admetus]

Allowing too much follow complexity makes special roles and wolves easier to discover. A wolf can potentially follow 2-3 targets per night since they knkw already their team. Multiply that by the total amount of wolves and you can potentially have the wolves pinpointing who have special roles by day 4 or 5.

Not sure how that would discover specials. Everyone -- even vanilla villagers -- has reason to SEARCH or USE, and to a following observer, that just appears as "he looks busy."

[twdog]

Most games complete in 7 is days, so I expect this game will wrap up this coming weekend, so we should be ok for christmas. I'm pushing writing conditionals off on the players to make things faster.

I'm writing up a post right now about how I'm going to let people do if then else conditionals on any round, testing on the presence of a player and what location you are in. Follow is basically going to need that.

[twdog]

I've added how the conditional moves work. They're ... umm ... cumbersome ... but they work right now, and, umm, yeah.

[rekard]

Allowing too much follow complexity makes special roles and wolves easier to discover. A wolf can potentially follow 2-3 targets per night since they knkw already their team. Multiply that by the total amount of wolves and you can potentially have the wolves pinpointing who have special roles by day 4 or 5.

Not sure how that would discover specials. Everyone -- even vanilla villagers -- has reason to SEARCH or USE, and to a following observer, that just appears as "he looks busy."

Why would vanilla villagers be searching? For what purpose? If a vanilla one has no real reason or guide to look, they are less likely to search for things. Last game had a purpose to look for things. But here? From what I gather the only objective is to kill wolves. They can better spend their time going around the map discerning suspicious wolf activity than spending valuable actions randomly searching on the big number of rooms for what will likely be nothing of use. Special roles, specially early on, will be observed hanging out in one location more than most. "Hey look, this guys just sepnt 6 rounds being busy. Jackpot."

What are hints for btw?

[Hellheart]

Allowing too much follow complexity makes special roles and wolves easier to discover. A wolf can potentially follow 2-3 targets per night since they knkw already their team. Multiply that by the total amount of wolves and you can potentially have the wolves pinpointing who have special roles by day 4 or 5.

Not sure how that would discover specials. Everyone -- even vanilla villagers -- has reason to SEARCH or USE, and to a following observer, that just appears as "he looks busy."

Why would vanilla villagers be searching? For what purpose? If a vanilla one has no real reason or guide to look, they are less likely to search for things. Last game had a purpose to look for things. But here? From what I gather the only objective is to kill wolves. They can better spend their time going around the map discerning suspicious wolf activity than spending valuable actions randomly searching on the big number of rooms for what will likely be nothing of use. Special roles, specially early on, will be observed hanging out in one location more than most. "Hey look, this guys just sepnt 6 rounds being busy. Jackpot."

What are hints for btw?

There are plenty of reasons for a Vanillager to search: hidden passages, switches/levers that may help isolate known wolves, one-time powers, one or more radios that twdog conveniently failed to mention, and hints that may involve future events involving the spaceship's AI which as we all know loves to go haywire and kill everyone on the ship.

Following players is vaguely wolfy because if a Vanillager sees suspicious activity from a player and outs it in the day thread, he may have just outed a power role instead of a wolf. Also, despite the location-based nature of the Seer in the Innsmouth game, the Seer is likely to NOT follow other players because if he follows a wolf he may become a target. Thus a Vanillager that is searching or using in centralized areas with a lot of links is actually laying Seer cover. Following people as a Vanillager is particularly troublesome if the wolves need to end the day in the same location as a maul target, which is possible if the kill mechanic isn't based on a third party once again, and if this is the case than the wolves will follow people so they have maul targets. If it IS based on a third party, then the hints may involve that and expose a secondary win condition for the humans.

IMO, I expect everyone to be searching and using simply because 12 rounds is an awful lot of time to be doing nothing productive, and if nobody searches a given room they could miss a vital clue, something that I recall was almost a devastating problem in the Innsmouth game where the dead's win condition was found when there was something like 7 players left with 2 wolves, making a 3-player dead victory almost impossible to avoid.

[Hellheart]

twdog, if a player uses a power in a room, what would other players in that room see?

If that message is distinctive, can a Vanillager use a nonexistent power for a specified number of rounds to fool people?

[twdog]

twdog, if a player uses a power in a room, what would other players in that room see?

If that message is distinctive, can a Vanillager use a nonexistent power for a specified number of rounds to fool people?

nope, and nope

---

I really don't want to get into it now, but there are things that regular roles can do

[Hellheart]

twdog, if a search in an area reveals a gameplay clue, will searches in the same area by other players reveal the same clue? Thinking about situations where a player fails to reveal a potentially vital clue