The Dead Thread

Someone opened the box. Now you're a potato.
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The Dead Thread

Postby dferrantino » 22 Mar 2014, 07:24:42

Well, here you are.

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Re: The Dead Thread

Postby Omega » 22 Mar 2014, 19:41:49

Killed myself, dferr. I look forward to watching the quantum fiasco.

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Re: The Dead Thread

Postby dferrantino » 23 Mar 2014, 15:52:20

Christ these guys talk so much.

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Re: The Dead Thread

Postby dferrantino » 23 Mar 2014, 21:07:17

And, as usual, the RNG is an asshole. 28% chance for any one player to be a wolf, 42% of the seers came back positive.

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Re: The Dead Thread

Postby dferrantino » 24 Mar 2014, 08:47:55

Heh, PM from Zark just to me, requesting a private forum: viewtopic.php?p=23070#p23070

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Re: The Dead Thread

Postby dferrantino » 24 Mar 2014, 09:03:32

GF had an idea last night that I think might work very well for future Quantum games, that I should just seed the game with certain possibilities to begin with (Even numbers can't be Seer, Odds can't be vigs, every third member can't be on a wolf team with each other, etc) and randomize those behind the curtain. The game would function the same, though since the initial states are incomplete it makes it harder to game the system, and incentivizes people to use specific strategies depending on their initial state.

Might be an interesting medium between the structure of a normal game and the complete chaos of a full-on Quantum game.

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Re: The Dead Thread

Postby Omega » 24 Mar 2014, 10:46:16

I was wondering when people would start asking for private forums again. But I guess we haven't had a PM game in a while.

How many possible states does the GF's plan reduce it to?

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Re: The Dead Thread

Postby dferrantino » 24 Mar 2014, 12:42:31

As many or as few as I want it to, honestly. Think about it in the abstract: a normal wolf game is just a Quantum game reduced to a single state. If I decide that every other player can't be a Seer, that cuts the number of states in half. If I decide that every third player can't be a Vig, it cuts them by 1/3. And so on based on whatever restrictions I arbitrarily decide as GM.

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Re: The Dead Thread

Postby dferrantino » 24 Mar 2014, 12:43:39

Can you see the extra boards, btw? I'm pretty sure I set up the boards and groups correctly, or at least noone's complaining that they're seeing extras.

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Re: The Dead Thread

Postby Omega » 24 Mar 2014, 13:30:59

Yes I can see them.

That explanation makes sense.

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Re: The Dead Thread

Postby dferrantino » 24 Mar 2014, 13:49:38

Why do I run games with open PMs?

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Re: The Dead Thread

Postby dferrantino » 24 Mar 2014, 14:18:05

Lesson #1: don't copy a group's permissions unless you are 100% sure it's the group you wanted. Accidentally gave Zark/DOM/PJ access to the Vowel Train for a few minutes.

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Re: The Dead Thread

Postby Omega » 24 Mar 2014, 14:38:38

dferrantino wrote:Why do I run games with open PMs?


:lol:

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Re: The Dead Thread

Postby Omega » 24 Mar 2014, 14:39:08

dferrantino wrote:Lesson #1: don't copy a group's permissions unless you are 100% sure it's the group you wanted. Accidentally gave Zark/DOM/PJ access to the Vowel Train for a few minutes.


That's a really good point that I should copy into the Back Room, I've made that mistake (at the Admin level, no less!)

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Re: The Dead Thread

Postby dferrantino » 24 Mar 2014, 15:02:51

dferrantino wrote:Subject: that which shall not be spoken of
From: 7-zark-7
Sent: 24 Mar 2014, 18:00:38
To: dferrantino DastardlyOldMan

Private note - I believe it's easier to steer ourselves human than special. Wanted to take your pulse before suggesting in thread.

One way to do so is to seer each other.

More in a bit,

7z7

I...don't think that works.

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Re: The Dead Thread

Postby Omega » 24 Mar 2014, 15:18:34

How many total forums do you think you'll end up creating here...

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Re: The Dead Thread

Postby dferrantino » 24 Mar 2014, 15:58:00

I have no idea. These guys are chatty.

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Re: The Dead Thread

Postby dferrantino » 24 Mar 2014, 20:10:13

Huh, SQL 2012 Express has a 10GB file limit.

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Re: The Dead Thread

Postby dferrantino » 24 Mar 2014, 20:22:27

Also:

Image

The log file's still growing. Not quite done resolving the lynch yet.

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Re: The Dead Thread

Postby dferrantino » 24 Mar 2014, 20:31:47

73.5 GB. Guessing he resolved as a special.

(144580800 row(s) affected)

Yep, Epsilon.

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Re: The Dead Thread

Postby dferrantino » 24 Mar 2014, 21:39:15

GODDAMNIT

Meta4 Seered DOM twice, causing some oddness that made me restore the db from a backup and rerun the whole fucking thing. Up an extra hour because of it.

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Re: The Dead Thread

Postby Blindsniper83 » 25 Mar 2014, 04:03:39

wow, i havent been day 1 dead in ages, and nobody dead with me to boot
RaveBomb making a lot of sense is how you know you're past the point of no return and that death is the only escape.

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Re: The Dead Thread

Postby dferrantino » 25 Mar 2014, 04:27:32

Don't worry, there's plenty to read through.

And welcome.

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Re: The Dead Thread

Postby dferrantino » 25 Mar 2014, 06:12:57

sphenodont wrote:That PJ came back human. He might be a worthy maul target, given that he's likely under the radar.

That'll probably end up making you even more likely to be Human, sphenodont.

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Re: The Dead Thread

Postby dferrantino » 25 Mar 2014, 11:51:51

Admetus wrote:I'm wondering if we shouldn't maybe coordinate our mauls. I remember that's also a method for becoming more wolfy, because with a block of people that have identical maul orders, as long as those mauls are valid, each person could be Wolf 1 to Wolf 4 interchangeably. That largely steps up the number of states that count those people as the same team. And if we decide we don't want to be on the wolf team (like for instance the wolves lose another person tonight), then we simply campaign to invalidate the mauls with one lynch.

Yes!

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Re: The Dead Thread

Postby dferrantino » 25 Mar 2014, 13:28:01

Admetus wrote:Just to keep the conversation going, do you have any other strategy tips for selecting targets, lynch or otherwise?

I really want to answer this question :(

Someone else needs to host a Quantum game one of these days.

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Re: The Dead Thread

Postby dferrantino » 25 Mar 2014, 19:30:50

So, Meta4 has seered DOM 3 nights in a row.

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Re: The Dead Thread

Postby Iron Clad Burrito » 25 Mar 2014, 19:51:07

dferrantino wrote:So, Meta4 has seered DOM 3 nights in a row.


This doesn't actually do any good either, does it? Same as mauling...

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Re: The Dead Thread

Postby dferrantino » 25 Mar 2014, 19:56:07

Iron Clad Burrito wrote:
dferrantino wrote:So, Meta4 has seered DOM 3 nights in a row.


This doesn't actually do any good either, does it? Same as mauling...

Correct. Will just keep returning the same results over and over again.

That said, it also makes him extraordinarily likely to actually resolve as the Seer, in a roundabout way, since it doesn't eliminate any extra states.

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Re: The Dead Thread

Postby dferrantino » 25 Mar 2014, 20:01:45

From the initial 250 million or so game states we had, we're now down to 232,768.

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Re: The Dead Thread

Postby dferrantino » 25 Mar 2014, 20:23:31

Welcome, necklessone!

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Re: The Dead Thread

Postby necklessone » 25 Mar 2014, 21:42:42

Now I want a perfect human quantum game. Come on, RNG!

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Re: The Dead Thread

Postby dferrantino » 26 Mar 2014, 06:46:59

FurinMirado wrote:Holy crap! I was trying to avoid necklessone resolving as I figured my chances of being Seer would plummet to zero if he resolved Human (which seemed likely). But damn. It looks like I'm still a possible Seer and no idea how many others might still have that possibility.

Will I be notified if I do/don't resolve as Seer?

I guess now I need to consider if I want to send a PM to the two people I've Seer'd as Human. Although if one of them is actually trying to resolve as Wolf that's going to be bad.

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Re: The Dead Thread

Postby dferrantino » 26 Mar 2014, 07:06:52

Okaros wrote:A rules/process question that I don't particularly feel like asking publicly:

Will you be announcing when a role has resolved by hitting 100% if that role isn't dead?

I.e.
"The Seer has resolved.", "Beta Wolf has resolved", etc...


Hmm. I haven't thought about that yet.

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Re: The Dead Thread

Postby dferrantino » 26 Mar 2014, 07:42:14

Also debating eliminating Seer or Dominant eligibility for anyone who's missed a vote. What do you guys think?

My thoughts on both are that someone who hasn't been using the role actually ends up being the most likely to fall into it, which means that when they get lynched there's a strong possibility that either the human team ends up with a bum Seer, or the wolf team ends up without any mauls.

For the Seer role this might be a good thing. If people share their seer results indiscriminately (IMO, the ideal play in this format), when they die or resolve there's an immediate human alliance which can roll the game. IIRC this is what's upset the balance in previous iterations of Quantum. Increasing the chance that a seer who's missed a few visions is the one who resolves adds a bit of balance back.

For whatever wolf is Dominant, I think it's too detrimental to the team to allow an MIA wolf to resolve. It immediately hamstrings the wolf team.

The other side of this coin is that if you're not participating in a particular role, Fate comes back and punishes you for it. However, I think it becomes a problem for other players who might resolve on that team.

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Re: The Dead Thread

Postby necklessone » 26 Mar 2014, 08:13:24

Let me think about the consequences for a seer.

Missing mauls should not be allowed to happen.

If my fuzzy memory is correct, instead of removing states where the player was dominant and didn't submit I threatened to assign a maul at random. Your method is more elegant but has the potential to be meta-gamed if people are assholes. Maybe don't announce it to the players?

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Re: The Dead Thread

Postby dferrantino » 26 Mar 2014, 08:20:07

IIRC, that's what I did last game as well, assigning a maul at random. I can do it retroactively but I think I prefer this solution.

Definitely won't inform them, though.

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Re: The Dead Thread

Postby dferrantino » 26 Mar 2014, 08:24:57

Other downside is that if everyone skips their maul, we end up with a paradox. And the obvious potential gaming of the system.

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Re: The Dead Thread

Postby necklessone » 26 Mar 2014, 08:35:58

If everyone skips the maul, you keep redoing the day until they do it right. Or time collapses on itself and kills them all, GM wins.

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Re: The Dead Thread

Postby dferrantino » 26 Mar 2014, 08:40:01

:D

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Re: The Dead Thread

Postby dferrantino » 26 Mar 2014, 08:42:29

Alright, so thoughts on retroactively filling missed mauls vs removing them outright from Alpha?

I also like removing them from the lead because it'll increase the chance that an Alpha resolves before getting lynched.

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Re: The Dead Thread

Postby dferrantino » 26 Mar 2014, 10:05:32

As always, tons of planning and backstabbing for people to become human and make other people wolves as soon as the 2nd wolf dies, but I see no discussion of how to actually win the game if they were to actually become the wolf.

People, wolves die all the time. That's why there's a team of them. This game was heavily stacked in favor of the wolves to begin with, percentage-wise.

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Re: The Dead Thread

Postby Ozymandias » 26 Mar 2014, 10:08:58

dferrantino wrote:GF had an idea last night that I think might work very well for future Quantum games, that I should just seed the game with certain possibilities to begin with (Even numbers can't be Seer, Odds can't be vigs, every third member can't be on a wolf team with each other, etc) and randomize those behind the curtain. The game would function the same, though since the initial states are incomplete it makes it harder to game the system, and incentivizes people to use specific strategies depending on their initial state.

Might be an interesting medium between the structure of a normal game and the complete chaos of a full-on Quantum game.

I like it.

I had one other thought-- what if there's more than one Seer?

And the Seer can see Seer status?

That would basically force a lot more linking of player visions (e.g., if you Seer someone as a Seer, and they can't be a Seer, then neither can you).

Multiple Vigs would also force quicker Seer resolution.

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Re: The Dead Thread

Postby Ozymandias » 26 Mar 2014, 10:10:21

dferrantino wrote:Why do I run games with open PMs?

Don't think quantum would work well without PMs.

What would people do in the first half of the game?

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Re: The Dead Thread

Postby Ozymandias » 26 Mar 2014, 10:13:17

dferrantino wrote:
Iron Clad Burrito wrote:
dferrantino wrote:So, Meta4 has seered DOM 3 nights in a row.


This doesn't actually do any good either, does it? Same as mauling...

Correct. Will just keep returning the same results over and over again.

That said, it also makes him extraordinarily likely to actually resolve as the Seer, in a roundabout way, since it doesn't eliminate any extra states.

Regarding that, why not randomly assign Seer targets to players who miss or repeat them-- but don't reveal the results.

That will at least make such players less likely to be Seers.

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Re: The Dead Thread

Postby Ozymandias » 26 Mar 2014, 10:15:52

dferrantino wrote:Also debating eliminating Seer or Dominant eligibility for anyone who's missed a vote. What do you guys think?

How many missed votes have there been?

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Re: The Dead Thread

Postby Ozymandias » 26 Mar 2014, 10:17:46

Ozymandias wrote:
dferrantino wrote:Also debating eliminating Seer or Dominant eligibility for anyone who's missed a vote. What do you guys think?

How many missed votes have there been?

A bit confused-- did you mean missed lynch votes, or missed Seer target and Maul targets, respectively?

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Re: The Dead Thread

Postby Ozymandias » 26 Mar 2014, 10:27:14

dferrantino wrote:Alright, so thoughts on retroactively filling missed mauls vs removing them outright from Alpha?

What if you let the Beta control the maul on nights that the Alpha missed?

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Re: The Dead Thread

Postby dferrantino » 26 Mar 2014, 10:39:23

Ozymandias wrote:
dferrantino wrote:GF had an idea last night that I think might work very well for future Quantum games, that I should just seed the game with certain possibilities to begin with (Even numbers can't be Seer, Odds can't be vigs, every third member can't be on a wolf team with each other, etc) and randomize those behind the curtain. The game would function the same, though since the initial states are incomplete it makes it harder to game the system, and incentivizes people to use specific strategies depending on their initial state.

Might be an interesting medium between the structure of a normal game and the complete chaos of a full-on Quantum game.

I like it.

I had one other thought-- what if there's more than one Seer?

And the Seer can see Seer status?

That would basically force a lot more linking of player visions (e.g., if you Seer someone as a Seer, and they can't be a Seer, then neither can you).

Multiple Vigs would also force quicker Seer resolution.

Interesting idea, and definitely workable into the current setup.

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Re: The Dead Thread

Postby dferrantino » 26 Mar 2014, 10:39:50

Ozymandias wrote:
dferrantino wrote:Why do I run games with open PMs?

Don't think quantum would work well without PMs.

What would people do in the first half of the game?

Which is exactly why I open them up. There's just SO MUCH SPAM OMG


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