The Dead Thread

Someone opened the box. Now you're a potato.
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Re: The Dead Thread

Postby dferrantino » 26 Mar 2014, 10:45:04

Ozymandias wrote:
Ozymandias wrote:
dferrantino wrote:Also debating eliminating Seer or Dominant eligibility for anyone who's missed a vote. What do you guys think?

How many missed votes have there been?

A bit confused-- did you mean missed lynch votes, or missed Seer target and Maul targets, respectively?

Missed seer and maul targets.

3 missed seers night 0
2 missed seers, 3 missed mauls night 1
1 missed seer, 2 missed mauls night 2

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Re: The Dead Thread

Postby Ozymandias » 26 Mar 2014, 10:50:36

dferrantino wrote:
Ozymandias wrote:
Ozymandias wrote:
dferrantino wrote:Also debating eliminating Seer or Dominant eligibility for anyone who's missed a vote. What do you guys think?

How many missed votes have there been?

A bit confused-- did you mean missed lynch votes, or missed Seer target and Maul targets, respectively?

Missed seer and maul targets.

3 missed seers night 0
2 missed seers, 3 missed mauls night 1
1 missed seer, 2 missed mauls night 2

What if you had the missed maul targeters automatically maul target one another?

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Re: The Dead Thread

Postby dferrantino » 26 Mar 2014, 10:53:19

Ozymandias wrote:
dferrantino wrote:Alright, so thoughts on retroactively filling missed mauls vs removing them outright from Alpha?

What if you let the Beta control the maul on nights that the Alpha missed?

Could be done, but I think it'd end up being way too complicated.

Example: Meta4 misses maul on night 1 (actually happened!)
I'd have to go back through the mauls, specifically for all states where Meta4 is Alpha, and then redo the maul script assuming all of the other wolf votes were Betas. I'd then have to keep track of which role each wolf was when they did the maul, instead of keeping track of just Dominance. IE: If necklessone resolved as Beta, his night 1 maul target in every instance of the game where Meta4 is Alpha is now dead. Additionally, if his night 1 maul target dies, he's now ineligible to be beta in any instance where Meta4 is Alpha.

If there were multiple misses, carry that out for every single combination.

It's mathematically possible, and should be possible within the construct of the DB I have set up, but the thought that would need to go into it is immense.

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Re: The Dead Thread

Postby dferrantino » 26 Mar 2014, 10:54:33

Ozymandias wrote:
dferrantino wrote:
Ozymandias wrote:
Ozymandias wrote:
dferrantino wrote:Also debating eliminating Seer or Dominant eligibility for anyone who's missed a vote. What do you guys think?

How many missed votes have there been?

A bit confused-- did you mean missed lynch votes, or missed Seer target and Maul targets, respectively?

Missed seer and maul targets.

3 missed seers night 0
2 missed seers, 3 missed mauls night 1
1 missed seer, 2 missed mauls night 2

What if you had the missed maul targeters automatically maul target one another?

Not a bad idea.

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Re: The Dead Thread

Postby dferrantino » 26 Mar 2014, 11:00:28

There we go!

Okaros wrote:I honestly wanted a planned-from-the-start wolf win, but I'll convert that to a lone-wolf win instead if I need to. :twisted:

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Re: The Dead Thread

Postby Iron Clad Burrito » 26 Mar 2014, 15:58:35

dferrantino wrote:
Ozymandias wrote:
dferrantino wrote:Alright, so thoughts on retroactively filling missed mauls vs removing them outright from Alpha?

What if you let the Beta control the maul on nights that the Alpha missed?

Could be done, but I think it'd end up being way too complicated.

Example: Meta4 misses maul on night 1 (actually happened!)
I'd have to go back through the mauls, specifically for all states where Meta4 is Alpha, and then redo the maul script assuming all of the other wolf votes were Betas. I'd then have to keep track of which role each wolf was when they did the maul, instead of keeping track of just Dominance. IE: If necklessone resolved as Beta, his night 1 maul target in every instance of the game where Meta4 is Alpha is now dead. Additionally, if his night 1 maul target dies, he's now ineligible to be beta in any instance where Meta4 is Alpha.

If there were multiple misses, carry that out for every single combination.

It's mathematically possible, and should be possible within the construct of the DB I have set up, but the thought that would need to go into it is immense.


Without reading the rest of the thread, I think it's actually a poor idea and subject to scenarios where you're forced to have a wolf maul a wolf, or force a missed maul ANYWAY, or even worse, you're forced into a paradox.

For example, Meta4 mauls Nitestorm, then misses a night where Necklessone does instead, THEN neckless resolves as Alpha. Or Necklessone mauls Meta4. What then?

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Re: The Dead Thread

Postby dferrantino » 26 Mar 2014, 16:07:43

They can't be wolves together, in either case. necklessone can't maul Nitestorm if Meta4 already has, so a team with both of them can't exist. Nitestorm can't maul another wolf, so a team with both of them can't exist either (it would be treated as if Nitestorm swapped into the Alpha role). Like I said, should be possible to evaluate all of the contingencies, there are just so many of them that it's unfeasible without another few hours worth of brainstorming and scripting. Definitely not worth implementing in the current game.

A missed maul is definitely possible (5 people forget to submit a maul vote), but a paradox shouldn't be.

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Re: The Dead Thread

Postby Ozymandias » 26 Mar 2014, 16:13:50

Iron Clad Burrito wrote:
dferrantino wrote:
Ozymandias wrote:
dferrantino wrote:Alright, so thoughts on retroactively filling missed mauls vs removing them outright from Alpha?

What if you let the Beta control the maul on nights that the Alpha missed?

Could be done, but I think it'd end up being way too complicated.

Example: Meta4 misses maul on night 1 (actually happened!)
I'd have to go back through the mauls, specifically for all states where Meta4 is Alpha, and then redo the maul script assuming all of the other wolf votes were Betas. I'd then have to keep track of which role each wolf was when they did the maul, instead of keeping track of just Dominance. IE: If necklessone resolved as Beta, his night 1 maul target in every instance of the game where Meta4 is Alpha is now dead. Additionally, if his night 1 maul target dies, he's now ineligible to be beta in any instance where Meta4 is Alpha.

If there were multiple misses, carry that out for every single combination.

It's mathematically possible, and should be possible within the construct of the DB I have set up, but the thought that would need to go into it is immense.


Without reading the rest of the thread, I think it's actually a poor idea and subject to scenarios where you're forced to have a wolf maul a wolf, or force a missed maul ANYWAY, or even worse, you're forced into a paradox.

For example, Meta4 mauls Nitestorm, then misses a night where Necklessone does instead, THEN neckless resolves as Alpha. Or Necklessone mauls Meta4. What then?

I wasn't necessarily suggesting that the missed Alpha mauls would affect Beta resolution.

Just that once Alpha and Beta resolve, then Beta's mauls could sub in for any mauls Alpha missed.

If Beta has an impossible maul target for that night, then you could just treat that as another missed maul-- in which case Gamma/Delta/Epsilon mauls could potentially fill in once they resolve.

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Re: The Dead Thread

Postby Iron Clad Burrito » 26 Mar 2014, 16:22:01

Ozymandias wrote:
Iron Clad Burrito wrote:
dferrantino wrote:
Ozymandias wrote:
dferrantino wrote:Alright, so thoughts on retroactively filling missed mauls vs removing them outright from Alpha?

What if you let the Beta control the maul on nights that the Alpha missed?

Could be done, but I think it'd end up being way too complicated.

Example: Meta4 misses maul on night 1 (actually happened!)
I'd have to go back through the mauls, specifically for all states where Meta4 is Alpha, and then redo the maul script assuming all of the other wolf votes were Betas. I'd then have to keep track of which role each wolf was when they did the maul, instead of keeping track of just Dominance. IE: If necklessone resolved as Beta, his night 1 maul target in every instance of the game where Meta4 is Alpha is now dead. Additionally, if his night 1 maul target dies, he's now ineligible to be beta in any instance where Meta4 is Alpha.

If there were multiple misses, carry that out for every single combination.

It's mathematically possible, and should be possible within the construct of the DB I have set up, but the thought that would need to go into it is immense.


Without reading the rest of the thread, I think it's actually a poor idea and subject to scenarios where you're forced to have a wolf maul a wolf, or force a missed maul ANYWAY, or even worse, you're forced into a paradox.

For example, Meta4 mauls Nitestorm, then misses a night where Necklessone does instead, THEN neckless resolves as Alpha. Or Necklessone mauls Meta4. What then?

I wasn't necessarily suggesting that the missed Alpha mauls would affect Beta resolution.

Just that once Alpha and Beta resolve, then Beta's mauls could sub in for any mauls Alpha missed.

If Beta has an impossible maul target for that night, then you could just treat that as another missed maul-- in which case Gamma/Delta/Epsilon mauls could potentially fill in once they resolve.


Hmmm.

Yeah, I could see that working out, too.

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Re: The Dead Thread

Postby dferrantino » 26 Mar 2014, 17:33:41

Ozymandias wrote:
Iron Clad Burrito wrote:
dferrantino wrote:
Ozymandias wrote:
dferrantino wrote:Alright, so thoughts on retroactively filling missed mauls vs removing them outright from Alpha?

What if you let the Beta control the maul on nights that the Alpha missed?

Could be done, but I think it'd end up being way too complicated.

Example: Meta4 misses maul on night 1 (actually happened!)
I'd have to go back through the mauls, specifically for all states where Meta4 is Alpha, and then redo the maul script assuming all of the other wolf votes were Betas. I'd then have to keep track of which role each wolf was when they did the maul, instead of keeping track of just Dominance. IE: If necklessone resolved as Beta, his night 1 maul target in every instance of the game where Meta4 is Alpha is now dead. Additionally, if his night 1 maul target dies, he's now ineligible to be beta in any instance where Meta4 is Alpha.

If there were multiple misses, carry that out for every single combination.

It's mathematically possible, and should be possible within the construct of the DB I have set up, but the thought that would need to go into it is immense.


Without reading the rest of the thread, I think it's actually a poor idea and subject to scenarios where you're forced to have a wolf maul a wolf, or force a missed maul ANYWAY, or even worse, you're forced into a paradox.

For example, Meta4 mauls Nitestorm, then misses a night where Necklessone does instead, THEN neckless resolves as Alpha. Or Necklessone mauls Meta4. What then?

I wasn't necessarily suggesting that the missed Alpha mauls would affect Beta resolution.

Just that once Alpha and Beta resolve, then Beta's mauls could sub in for any mauls Alpha missed.

If Beta has an impossible maul target for that night, then you could just treat that as another missed maul-- in which case Gamma/Delta/Epsilon mauls could potentially fill in once they resolve.

Nah, it'd have to be taken into account before the fact, at the risk of resolving into a paradox. Hence all of the nonsense that I mentioned earlier.

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Re: The Dead Thread

Postby Iron Clad Burrito » 26 Mar 2014, 17:48:32

dferrantino wrote:
Ozymandias wrote:
Iron Clad Burrito wrote:
dferrantino wrote:
Ozymandias wrote:
dferrantino wrote:Alright, so thoughts on retroactively filling missed mauls vs removing them outright from Alpha?

What if you let the Beta control the maul on nights that the Alpha missed?

Could be done, but I think it'd end up being way too complicated.

Example: Meta4 misses maul on night 1 (actually happened!)
I'd have to go back through the mauls, specifically for all states where Meta4 is Alpha, and then redo the maul script assuming all of the other wolf votes were Betas. I'd then have to keep track of which role each wolf was when they did the maul, instead of keeping track of just Dominance. IE: If necklessone resolved as Beta, his night 1 maul target in every instance of the game where Meta4 is Alpha is now dead. Additionally, if his night 1 maul target dies, he's now ineligible to be beta in any instance where Meta4 is Alpha.

If there were multiple misses, carry that out for every single combination.

It's mathematically possible, and should be possible within the construct of the DB I have set up, but the thought that would need to go into it is immense.


Without reading the rest of the thread, I think it's actually a poor idea and subject to scenarios where you're forced to have a wolf maul a wolf, or force a missed maul ANYWAY, or even worse, you're forced into a paradox.

For example, Meta4 mauls Nitestorm, then misses a night where Necklessone does instead, THEN neckless resolves as Alpha. Or Necklessone mauls Meta4. What then?

I wasn't necessarily suggesting that the missed Alpha mauls would affect Beta resolution.

Just that once Alpha and Beta resolve, then Beta's mauls could sub in for any mauls Alpha missed.

If Beta has an impossible maul target for that night, then you could just treat that as another missed maul-- in which case Gamma/Delta/Epsilon mauls could potentially fill in once they resolve.

Nah, it'd have to be taken into account before the fact, at the risk of resolving into a paradox. Hence all of the nonsense that I mentioned earlier.


And this is why I stopped playing quantums. I break my brain trying to work shit out when I am just not smart enough to do so, but I still try. :)

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Re: The Dead Thread

Postby Rictus » 26 Mar 2014, 20:46:37

Hey-o. This looks like the place for dead people to hang out.

Dfer, thanks for running the game!

Glad I got bumped out early...I don't know if quantum is my cup of tea. Maybe after i watch from here.

I read through the various boards and was a bit surprised at how many people were meta gaming me based on the last game. Seems like several players expected me to irrationally go after Ryvvn (and rekard, and thatpj).
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Re: The Dead Thread

Postby dferrantino » 27 Mar 2014, 04:34:40

Yeah, IDK. Seems like a real silly idea, but a few people apparently hold some serious grudges.

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Re: The Dead Thread

Postby dferrantino » 27 Mar 2014, 06:14:24

FurinMirado wrote:I need to lie low but I also need to start leaving breadcrumbs in case I resolve to Seer and also Dead. We're still waiting for the big event that will resolve a lot of players. Hell, I could end up a Wolf. Wouldn't that be funny?

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Re: The Dead Thread

Postby dferrantino » 27 Mar 2014, 06:14:36

Hellheart wrote:What's the longest somebody has gone in a large quantum game without getting a single maul vote from anyone? (which, if I correctly interpreted Okaros' comment, is the only way I can still be at 0% dead)

The "too funny to kill" factor is strong in this game.

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Re: The Dead Thread

Postby Rictus » 27 Mar 2014, 18:48:43

So far, the epic rekard vs Zark showdown is pathetic.



Edit: well the snipe pile on at the end was interesting, if only for 1 minute.
Last edited by Rictus on 27 Mar 2014, 19:14:53, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Dead Thread

Postby dferrantino » 27 Mar 2014, 19:07:38

sphenodont wrote:For the dead:
I'm not really trying to figure out the percentages this game, but playing by ear. I know I'm overestimating the number of mauls on me, but I've put up a front with my "team", so I ought to keep it up.

I've been trying to play both sides as honestly as possible, which means I'm not willing to rat out my wolf team, but if it works out that I nail wolves on the opposition, so be it.

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Re: The Dead Thread

Postby dferrantino » 27 Mar 2014, 20:16:28

Fucked up and resolved the Seer before the maul tonight, so I had to restore from backup and start over again. Lots of Wolf seers in the second go, we're under 20,000 states now!

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Re: The Dead Thread

Postby dferrantino » 28 Mar 2014, 06:11:32

Also, I'm banning PMs starting tonight.

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Re: The Dead Thread

Postby Rictus » 28 Mar 2014, 06:43:00

dferrantino wrote:Also, I'm banning PMs starting tonight.

Does that include the 'alliance' boards you have set up?
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Re: The Dead Thread

Postby dferrantino » 28 Mar 2014, 06:45:50

Yeah. Will grant read-only access to those who had access to them, but no more posting.

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Re: The Dead Thread

Postby dferrantino » 28 Mar 2014, 07:37:05

FurinMirado wrote:I'm thinking that Seering someone as Wolf reduces their chance of being a Seer, but if that player actually resolves as Wolf then the potential Seer is much more likely to resolve as Seer. I believe my chances have actually gone up since I correctly Seer'd necklessone as Wolf. This is, of course, all speculation as we don't know our Seer percentage.

That would be correct, hence the massive increase in your Seer percentage the day necklessone was resolved as a wolf. It's gone steadily down since, though, and seering a second wolf makes you much less likely to resolve.

As an aside, this is why being super-open about your seer results is, IMO, the best strategy for Quantum. Seering a Human makes you more likely to be seer. The flip side of this is that you would draw a maul from everyone else, but that assumes perfect play from them. Once you die, the fact that you've seered a bunch of humans make you a good candidate, the fact that you've told them all creates an HA, and the fact that everyone has imperfect information means your HA might actually squeeze by and not get mauled by everyone simultaneously.

It's also another point for not allowing PMs, and one of the reasons I'm banning them tonight. I should have banned them last night, before the seer reveals started happening, but looks like I mistimed it.

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Re: The Dead Thread

Postby dferrantino » 28 Mar 2014, 09:38:16

Okaros wrote:I just had to decide to be ambitious for this game, didn't I? I should've known I'd have to spend every waking minute shepherding my lies along with this many alliances. :flail: :lol:

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Re: The Dead Thread

Postby dferrantino » 28 Mar 2014, 09:50:31

sphenodont wrote:Well, if he has truthfully seen DOM as wolf, that's at least three people who have, which means DOM's our likely alpha right now.


Code: Select all

id            Player     seer     vig        a        b         g        d         e      dead
 1           That PJ    3.55%   8.61%    0.00%    5.07%     0.00%    5.07%     0.00%    44.49%
 2       necklessone    0.00%   0.00%    0.00%    0.00%   100.00%    0.00%     0.00%   100.00%
 3       FurinMirado    4.68%   5.75%   10.29%    6.63%     0.00%    6.63%     0.00%    28.66%
 4   DastardlyOldMan   13.03%   5.66%   12.25%    8.96%     0.00%    8.96%     0.00%    19.65%
 5            rekard    6.68%   0.00%   10.73%    8.01%     0.00%    8.01%     0.00%    16.39%
 6            Okaros    0.00%   7.34%    8.70%    8.71%     0.00%    8.71%     0.00%     8.45%
 7           Admetus    1.06%   8.65%    0.00%    6.19%     0.00%    6.19%     0.00%    29.62%
 8          7-Zark-7    0.00%   0.00%    0.00%    0.00%     0.00%    0.00%     0.00%   100.00%
 9        sphenodont    5.16%   5.42%   10.24%    5.76%     0.00%    5.76%     0.00%    29.62%
10          Visigoth    5.03%   7.49%    0.00%   10.04%     0.00%   10.04%     0.00%     8.70%
11             Ryvvn    0.00%   8.19%    8.45%    4.99%     0.00%    4.99%     0.00%    38.63%
12         Hellheart    3.85%   6.98%    8.92%    8.80%     0.00%    8.80%     0.00%     0.00%
13            Rictus    0.00%   0.00%    0.00%    0.00%     0.00%    0.00%     0.00%   100.00%
14             Aldax    8.63%   8.11%    0.00%    5.02%     0.00%    5.02%     0.00%    27.43%
15    Mister E. Meat    2.19%   7.58%   13.24%    4.66%     0.00%    4.66%     0.00%    38.45%
16             Meta4   32.37%   5.25%    7.46%    3.69%     0.00%    3.69%     0.00%    52.68%
17     Blindsniper83    0.00%   0.00%    0.00%    0.00%     0.00%    0.00%   100.00%   100.00%
18          stigmata    7.98%   7.70%    0.00%    7.59%     0.00%    7.59%     0.00%    32.20%
19         Nitestorm    5.78%   7.27%    9.73%    5.90%     0.00%    5.90%     0.00%    13.24%


Looks like it's actually MEM right now.

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Re: The Dead Thread

Postby Rictus » 28 Mar 2014, 10:28:06

MEM barely has an edge on DOM.

I noticed Meta4 has a pretty good shot at the Seer. ~32%


Question: I thought in the original discussion of the game rules, it was mentioned that the Alpha would resolve on lynch.

Is there a chance that a players Alpha % climbs to 100% before they are lynched? I'm guessing there is... so the real question is "How likely is it?"
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Re: The Dead Thread

Postby dferrantino » 28 Mar 2014, 10:55:12

I don't think it's happened yet in any of the Quantum games we've played. Maybe the very first one where there were only 8 players, but not in any of the larger ones.

In order for it to happen, everybody else needs to be eliminated from contention of being the Alpha. The only way to get removed from the Dominant spot is to have a player that you've mauled get lynched (which will remove you entirely from the role, and is the reason 5 players can't be Alpha anymore), for one of them to resolve 100% Wolf via Seering or other means (which will also remove you entirely, and has happened), or to maul the same person someone else has Vigged (which will only remove you as Alpha in whatever % of games they're the Vig).

Meta4 has a good shot at being Seer because he's seered DOM 4 days in a row, which is effectively the same as missing 3 of those 4. It would be in the Human team's best interest to make sure he doesn't actually resolve as Seer, else they have essentially no information.

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Re: The Dead Thread

Postby dferrantino » 28 Mar 2014, 11:21:18

It's interesting, I don't think we've had a situation where the targeting has been as focused as it is in this game. Lynching DOM, rekard, or Ryvvn will result in a ton of people losing Seer or Alpha status, whereas stigmata probably wouldn't have an effect at all.

Even more interestingly, Hellheart still hasn't drawn a maul.

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Re: The Dead Thread

Postby dferrantino » 28 Mar 2014, 12:47:06

I'm very curious as to what will happen with the game states once parity is theoretically reached. Do I have to end the game or will it take care of that for me?

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Re: The Dead Thread

Postby dferrantino » 28 Mar 2014, 12:48:50

Meta4 seered DOM again. His response when I asked him about it made me chuckle:

Meta4 wrote:You don't change horsemen mid-apocalypse!

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Re: The Dead Thread

Postby Ozymandias » 28 Mar 2014, 13:40:15

I think it's unfair to the eventual Humans that Meta4 is the most likely Seer.

As I suggested earlier, I think you should give Meta4 a random vision for each night he repeatedly Seered DOM-- just don't reveal those visions to Meta4.

That should be penalty enough.

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Re: The Dead Thread

Postby Rictus » 28 Mar 2014, 14:06:42

dferr: You explicitly said people were welcome to try to game the system in your opening post.



Edit: on my phone so this was worded weird, but you guys get my point.
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Re: The Dead Thread

Postby dferrantino » 28 Mar 2014, 14:47:10

I did. Not sure what you're getting at.

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Re: The Dead Thread

Postby dferrantino » 28 Mar 2014, 15:06:27

Ozymandias wrote:I think it's unfair to the eventual Humans that Meta4 is the most likely Seer.

As I suggested earlier, I think you should give Meta4 a random vision for each night he repeatedly Seered DOM-- just don't reveal those visions to Meta4.

That should be penalty enough.

Eh, considering how the last couple of games played out, I feel like the Seer is way more valuable in Quantum than it is in a normal game. As I said before, the combination of the ability to go public without recourse, and the near-guarantee of getting to the midgame before death means there's a ready-made HA going into the endgame and no guaranteed wolves to act on it.

I'm 100% okay with upping the chances of a useless one getting the job. Maybe when people get more experience in the variant and start learning how to "properly" play it I'll reconsider, but right now I've got no problem with it.

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Re: The Dead Thread

Postby Rictus » 28 Mar 2014, 15:14:40

dferrantino wrote:I did. Not sure what you're getting at.

Meta4 seems to be gaming the system... So I was disagreeing with Ozy's idea to penalize him.
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Re: The Dead Thread

Postby Ozymandias » 28 Mar 2014, 15:26:12

Rictus wrote:
dferrantino wrote:I did. Not sure what you're getting at.

Meta4 seems to be gaming the system... So I was disagreeing with Ozy's idea to penalize him.

I don't think it's "gaming the system" if doing so puts you at a competitive disadvantage.

"Penalizing" Meta4 in the manner I suggested would actually make him more likely to win.

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Re: The Dead Thread

Postby Iron Clad Burrito » 28 Mar 2014, 15:31:53

Rictus wrote:
dferrantino wrote:I did. Not sure what you're getting at.

Meta4 seems to be gaming the system... So I was disagreeing with Ozy's idea to penalize him.


Ozy's completely right that it's unfair to the potential humans, but I disagree with his idea to penalize.

There was a discussion about mauling the same person over and over. Guess no one thought to ask about seering the same person. :)

Although... and again I'm probably way off-base here -- there ARE still potential game-states where Meta4 gets different results from seering DoM, yes? At least potentially, since DoM hasn't fully resolved into any particular role.

If he does it again, and still seers Dom as [whatever] again, make sure you include the definition of insanity in the PM result.

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Re: The Dead Thread

Postby Ozymandias » 28 Mar 2014, 15:34:47

Iron Clad Burrito wrote:Although... and again I'm probably way off-base here -- there ARE still potential game-states where Meta4 gets different results from seering DoM, yes? At least potentially, since DoM hasn't fully resolved into any particular role.

No, Meta4 always has to get the same Seer result, because if DOM resolves into something other than whatever Meta4 first seered him as, then Meta4 can't possibly be the Seer.

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Re: The Dead Thread

Postby Iron Clad Burrito » 28 Mar 2014, 15:37:53

Ozymandias wrote:
Iron Clad Burrito wrote:Although... and again I'm probably way off-base here -- there ARE still potential game-states where Meta4 gets different results from seering DoM, yes? At least potentially, since DoM hasn't fully resolved into any particular role.

No, Meta4 always has to get the same Seer result, because if DOM resolves into something other than whatever Meta4 first seered him as, then Meta4 can't possibly be the Seer.

Yup, I forgot that aspect.

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Re: The Dead Thread

Postby Rictus » 28 Mar 2014, 15:40:51

Ozymandias wrote:
Rictus wrote:
dferrantino wrote:I did. Not sure what you're getting at.

Meta4 seems to be gaming the system... So I was disagreeing with Ozy's idea to penalize him.

I don't think it's "gaming the system" if doing so puts you at a competitive disadvantage.

"Penalizing" Meta4 in the manner I suggested would actually make him more likely to win.

My understanding of quantum is not very good.

1. Can meta4 resolve to seer without being killed?

2. Maybe I misinterpreted your comment "that should be penalty enough"..
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Re: The Dead Thread

Postby Ozymandias » 28 Mar 2014, 15:46:44

Rictus wrote:My understanding of quantum is not very good.

1. Can meta4 resolve to seer without being killed?

I think only if everyone else resolves as non-Seers.

Which seems unlikely, but then again the longer he lives and keeps Seering the same target, the less likely it is that anyone else who is lynched or mauled will resolve as Seer.

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Re: The Dead Thread

Postby dferrantino » 28 Mar 2014, 16:06:13

On phone, so quick and dirty response. Ozy's suggestion reduces the likelihood that meta resolves as seer, bringing him in line with everyone else, but without any results to show for it. This lessens the penalty the entire human team is currently receiving due to him simply existing.

Wrt gaming the system: sure that may be his intent and I'm not going to stop him. I just wanted to make sure he wasn't just misinterpreting the rules. Now that I know it's 100% intentional, I'm not going to mention it to him again lol.

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Re: The Dead Thread

Postby dferrantino » 28 Mar 2014, 16:07:23

And yes, he can resolve as seer once no-one else it's eligible. Happened to Clearasday last game.

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Re: The Dead Thread

Postby dferrantino » 28 Mar 2014, 16:17:37

I really like DOM's post.

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Re: The Dead Thread

Postby dferrantino » 28 Mar 2014, 16:23:39

And, reading through the entire exchange: Rictus, you misunderstood what Ozy meant by "That should be penalty enough."

He's not talking about penalizing Meta4, he's talking about the fact that Meta4's constant seering of DOM leaves him both extremely likely to be Seer and completely useless as the role. That's a penalty on the entire Human team. If it's indeed his intention to become Seer at all costs (which if I'm reading you right is what you mean by his "gaming the system") I'm perfectly fine with allowing it, as the penalty his team gets for his doing so offsets the huge bonus they get from exactly what DOM suggested in his post.

I can't allow Wolves to fuck around because of either the dynamics of Quantum itself, or just the fact that the quantum "metagame" hasn't matured to the point where the majority of players understand how to "solve" the game yet. Once that happens all of this can be revisited.

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Re: The Dead Thread

Postby DastardlyOldMan » 28 Mar 2014, 19:45:25

dferrantino wrote:And, reading through the entire exchange: Rictus, you misunderstood what Ozy meant by "That should be penalty enough."

He's not talking about penalizing Meta4, he's talking about the fact that Meta4's constant seering of DOM leaves him both extremely likely to be Seer and completely useless as the role. That's a penalty on the entire Human team. If it's indeed his intention to become Seer at all costs (which if I'm reading you right is what you mean by his "gaming the system") I'm perfectly fine with allowing it, as the penalty his team gets for his doing so offsets the huge bonus they get from exactly what DOM suggested in his post.

I can't allow Wolves to fuck around because of either the dynamics of Quantum itself, or just the fact that the quantum "metagame" hasn't matured to the point where the majority of players understand how to "solve" the game yet. Once that happens all of this can be revisited.

Mmm... in this regard, I'll refer to the discussions we've had about "trying your best to make your team win" that we've had whenever we see a conversion game (I'm trying my best to get converted and fucking over my current team - is not a viable strategy, etc.)

If Meta4 is trying his best to become the Seer, but fucking over the rest of the human team in doing so, then he's advocating a loss for his own team. Since this is Quantum, the line's a bit greyer, but if you were to Seer the same target every night in a vanilla game, you'd be fucking over your own team. We'd pretty much policy-WoG you for doing that (if there were a situation where seer results could change, conversion games, whatever, then go to your heart's content).

I absolutely hate PM games, and I should've went with my gut and ducked out when dfer announced that change (but as one of the few people that actually understands how quantum works, I always feel obligated to play). We advertise games that require little to no commitment, and PM games are not those games. A day thread with 27 posts isn't a thread, it's a tragedy. That said, I have no idea why you'd change that mid-game, but thanks for doing the day *after* I got killed, you bastard.

Also, it is HARD to become a wolf, especially when you don't have time to do grandiose PM-y stuffs. I was happy to get to 30% there.

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Re: The Dead Thread

Postby dferrantino » 28 Mar 2014, 20:07:37

Re: Meta4 - The rules have always been a bit more lax in Quantum, as it's encouraged to game the system. Hence him being allowed to do it without any consequence aside from screwing over his likely team.

Re: PMs - As Ozy said earlier in this thread, there's not much to really discuss in the early stages of Quantum besides the rules themselves, so opening private messages was done to facilitate private alliances. That said, I absolutely agree with the fact that such a sparse day thread is an absolute tragedy, which is why I'm banning them mid-game. I think at this point, all of the alliance-forming and the fact that the Alpha hasn't been found yet should spur a ton of conversation and game-crafting, and I didn't want that to be hidden behind the wall.

I think the next time I run it, I'll keep them blocked, in the hopes that we get some interesting conversation, but there's no way we'd get the type of scheming we've gotten so far in this game without private comms. I totally respect the fact that it sucks tremendously for those who can't or don't have time to play the PM game though, as I'm generally one of them too.

It's hard to become a wolf in general, I've been trying to figure out the best way for some time now. The fact that you start out with an 80% chance to not be is tough to overcome, and there are so many ways to prevent yourself from becoming a wolf, but no way to increase that chance aside from eliminating others' maul targets.

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Re: The Dead Thread

Postby dferrantino » 28 Mar 2014, 20:08:27

Okaros wrote:Well-played, sir. Well-played. You now have a quantum game in which PMs are both banned and not-banned. :lol:

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Re: The Dead Thread

Postby DastardlyOldMan » 28 Mar 2014, 20:58:23

So, once the wolves reach parity without any actually being defined, what's the plan? I personally think a "wolves win, everyone loses" scenario is appropriate, but only because *everyone* was trying to game the system instead of, you know, actually playing.

Continuing on until the RNG decides who the victors are seems kind of pointless, but I guess would allow people to continue trying to game the system to bias the results toward them. That said, someone currently with a 5% wolfiness will end up being a wolf, so, yay?

Either way, you might want to publicly announce it. Today is final lynch before lynch-or-lose, and if you don't give some kind of reality-check, they're going to continue bumbling along. Or, you could get "lucky" and the "RNG" resolves the next lynch as wolf, so that you don't have to make that decision ;p

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Re: The Dead Thread

Postby DastardlyOldMan » 28 Mar 2014, 21:08:09

Going to reiterate as I go through some of the various PM boards, there need to be strong (or ANY) penalties for missing votes or late submissions when you're obviously fully engaged in the game, but are "forgetting" to go to the day thread. That's *why* the PM game ends up where it's at and the day thread is so damn quiet.

I would've considered a PM-ban of individuals as an appropriate penalty, as well as not giving people their own numbers until they're back in "good" standing.

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Re: The Dead Thread

Postby DastardlyOldMan » 28 Mar 2014, 21:35:22

Hellheart wrote:If/When DOM finds out that I've been the mole, my survival rate is going to plummet. That worries me quite a bit as well.

It was pretty much Day 1, Hellheart (maybe Day 2?). I mean, c'mon man, you voted against us EVERY SINGLE DAY (I could give two shits about the RP excuse you tried to drop) - it was rather obvious that you weren't on our side. You had all the subterfuge of a brick wall.

Of course, since ThatPJ was also a mole, that entire forum became a joke, and 7Z7 and I mostly went private (for the very limited PM'ing that we did do). I tried to feed a few pieces of misinformation through, just to see where they ended, but there wasn't much point to it. I didn't have info to pass around, and I really wasn't interested in playing the PM-game to that level.

The finesse in a quantum game is trying to setup both a wolf victory if you resolve as wolf and a human victory if you resolve as seer. I don't think anyone's catching on to that - it all seems to be people trying to blunt-force push for wolf victory, and fucking themselves when the RNG bounces on them. Lots and lots of facepalm.


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