Night 5. Obstacles Now.

In the night, you strike.
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Night 5. Obstacles Now.

Postby rekard » 23 May 2014, 18:48:06

PJ is on vacation now. Maybe he can get back!

Aldax is not a nutjob.

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Re: Night 5. Obstacles Now.

Postby Simple_Simon » 23 May 2014, 18:49:49

rekard wrote:PJ is on vacation now. Maybe he can get back!

Aldax is not a nutjob.


Well fuck ...

and fuck ...

Do you ever have any good news?
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Re: Night 5. Obstacles Now.

Postby That PJ » 23 May 2014, 18:51:15

He doesn't.

But spheno is dead! And he hasn't revealed if blind is the nutjob or not yet. I'll let you guys know.

I had a good time putting the pieces together with you guys, however briefly I was present.

EDIT: Nevermind, there it is. Blind is not the nutjob. I am utterly perplexed.
PJ's general resignation towards fate is good enough. -Okaros
Then he went and shot himself, saved me and got himself lynched because of it. You magnificent fool! -Mister E. Meat

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Re: Night 5. Obstacles Now.

Postby Simple_Simon » 23 May 2014, 18:52:18

That PJ wrote:He doesn't.

But spheno is dead! And he hasn't revealed if blind is the nutjob or not yet. I'll let you guys know.

I had a good time putting the pieces together with you guys, however briefly I was present.


If it's any consolation I'd really like to try and get you back.
For what it's worth, though, his talking to himself is awfully entertaining.-sphen
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Re: Night 5. Obstacles Now.

Postby That PJ » 23 May 2014, 18:58:41

Simple_Simon wrote:
That PJ wrote:He doesn't.

But spheno is dead! And he hasn't revealed if blind is the nutjob or not yet. I'll let you guys know.

I had a good time putting the pieces together with you guys, however briefly I was present.


If it's any consolation I'd really like to try and get you back.

I do appreciate it, though the odds are... pretty long.

The vacation pool has:
- Furin (spent assassin, unaligned; only the nutjob will want him back)
- meta4 (his faction will want him back, but that should be severely weakened by now)
- sphenodont (ditto, but he may have networked allies with him)
- MaxFrost (Also in the meta4 group, based on spheno's dying words)
- Me

There are, what, 10 9 players left in the game? The two of you and my two former allies (if they believe I'm legit) make four. That is pretty close. But unfortunately it'll probably be no revival from the last meta4 survivor (Aldax or blindsniper), and Okaros' troupe (Guessing Aldax-or-blindsniper, Rictus, aaaand I don't know) which is a solid 4 3-player bloc. You'd have to convince the nutjob that I'm human.

The nutjob who must be Antipater at this point. Every other player we know to be in a faction or is cleared via Seer. Unbelievable.

I guess you could also try to convince the last meta4 player that it's in his best interests to put me back on my feet. Or make a push for Furin's return or Max's to defray the rest of the vote. But it really is pretty long odds.

So, I appreciate the thought, and it might be worth trying, but it probably won't happen. Especially not with Maxy reporting on our actions.

EDIT: Did some heavy editing because my number count was off. 9 players still standing. Okaros is close to parity.
PJ's general resignation towards fate is good enough. -Okaros
Then he went and shot himself, saved me and got himself lynched because of it. You magnificent fool! -Mister E. Meat

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Re: Night 5. Obstacles Now.

Postby MaxFrost » 23 May 2014, 20:18:40

I'm not going to try to convince you otherwise, but please consider that my earlier statements are (and are still) true.

Nobody has converted me, and I haven't talked to anybody. Anything that was lost from this board was not due to me.

However, I don't have a case to get me revived right now, other than try to get votes built up for me. I'm guessing Furin is probalby going to be revived as he's probably neutral.

Sorry for missing the vote, I was hosting a party here at my house right through vote time.

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Re: Night 5. Obstacles Now.

Postby Hellheart » 23 May 2014, 20:33:34

Furin can't be revived. He's neutral/sociopath, and I'm going to express my desire to lynch Okaros. PJ has the right of it; nobody's going to risk reviving an outright human because he might actually just win if he's revived.

Meta4 won't be revived because he's a wolf and people are not idiots. Okaros' faction might push for it, but they won't get far.

sphenodont can't be revived because he was teamkilled.

MaxFrost has a chance of being revived, but he's not going to get any love from us because That PJ is 100% guaranteed to be safe...and MaxFrost definitely is not. Why would Meta4 give up Simon's name if he's their mole? More importantly, why would Simon vote to kill his own wolf?

I'm going to try to chart things before leaving, and see if I can figure out who the last sociopath is (probably Blindsniper but not certain). Might be able to negotiate for your resurrection in exchange for giving him whatever info he still wants/needs.

Pre-Post EDIT: Antipater? Interesting.

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Re: Night 5. Obstacles Now.

Postby Hellheart » 23 May 2014, 21:24:58

That PJ, does your faction suspect/know that you're a convert? Based off of either them speculating such or just not saying anything of impact.

It'll affect how I approach this going forward.

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Re: Night 5. Obstacles Now.

Postby Simple_Simon » 23 May 2014, 21:28:19

Hellheart wrote:That PJ, does your faction suspect/know that you're a convert? Based off of either them speculating such or just not saying anything of impact.

It'll affect how I approach this going forward.


uh ...

dude?

rekard wrote:What the hell is this?

Rumors on the net are abound with scandal!

??


[b]That PJ - Nightis Darksiders

Meta4 - Newpolis Rogues
Sphenodont - Newpolis Rogues
[/b]

Hmph. We actually got spies? These are only rumors. Our venerable president Mortus is indicating that he's reading the net and he wants one of those guys on break back.

Today is Revival Day. With one difference.

Mortus has declared one HAS to come back. The "No Revival" option has ceased to be an option. Your choice.


Emphasis mine. :?
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Re: Night 5. Obstacles Now.

Postby Simple_Simon » 23 May 2014, 21:29:04

Image

You do understand the nutjob is out, right? We're out of time on that one.

Edit: Image. :lol: <3
For what it's worth, though, his talking to himself is awfully entertaining.-sphen
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Re: Night 5. Obstacles Now.

Postby Hellheart » 23 May 2014, 22:13:21

Damnit Simon, you're not supposed to call me out like that! :lol:

I remember doing similarly stupid things multiple times last game as well. Guess it's my new thing :P

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Re: Night 5. Obstacles Now.

Postby Simple_Simon » 23 May 2014, 23:03:11

Hellheart wrote:Damnit Simon, you're not supposed to call me out like that! :lol:

I remember doing similarly stupid things multiple times last game as well. Guess it's my new thing :P


<3
For what it's worth, though, his talking to himself is awfully entertaining.-sphen
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Re: Night 5. Obstacles Now.

Postby Hellheart » 24 May 2014, 03:07:06

If an unaffiliated player is still alive, it's possible that he could solo win when Okaros dies.

But if we actually try to lynch him and he votes for somebody outside of Okaros' team, then we have a 50% chance of being forced to lynch Okaros first regardless of when it happens (we're basically forced to lynch Okaros team members until none are left).

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Re: Night 5. Obstacles Now.

Postby That PJ » 24 May 2014, 12:55:44

Hellheart, you are losing your mind. :)

As far as I can figure, Antipater is the last unaligned character. Rictus, Aldax, and Blindsniper have all been cleared. Zark and twdog are in Vampiria (though I suspect one has been converted at the same time I was). Okaros is the last wolf. Antipater is the only one left.

But that said, if Okaros was successful in his conversion night, he wins next game day if we don't lynch someone in his group.

I'm planning to out myself to my old action, since it's pretty abundantly clear already, but they're being kind of cagey about talking about it on our forum. Either they're fucking with me, or one of them is also converted and trying not to overplay their position. Or something. They're not that dumb. Either way, the crux of my pitch to them is that everyone else is a worse option for them and I can put all the pieces of the puzzle together for them. Which means I'd be sharing information between our factions. They pretty much know who you guys are anyway, and are equally screwed, so you guys need to collaborate to remove Okaros's faction.

They've already gotten a pitch from Furin to give them information, but I think he knows less. I still fully expect Furin to win as the least offensive option to everyone, but it's worth a shot.
PJ's general resignation towards fate is good enough. -Okaros
Then he went and shot himself, saved me and got himself lynched because of it. You magnificent fool! -Mister E. Meat

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Re: Night 5. Obstacles Now.

Postby Hellheart » 24 May 2014, 19:41:07

Post-clarification, Furin is hands-down the best revival that isn't That PJ and we should push for him.

Meta4 would be an amusing revive, but all that would do is guarantee that one of those two teams would win.
Last edited by Hellheart on 24 May 2014, 21:56:12, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Night 5. Obstacles Now.

Postby Hellheart » 24 May 2014, 20:32:16

Okay, rearranged the above in a more clear logical format and posted it. I think it's as streamlined as I can make it.

If Okaros' faction used their conversion, I can all but guarantee you that it was on Zark. I don't really think you should actually say that to your old group, but I figured Meta4's faction should keep that in mind if they don't already know.

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Re: Night 5. Obstacles Now.

Postby rekard » 24 May 2014, 21:25:32

I will emphasize the win conditions.

Wolves die, faction loses. You are faction, you lose.

Wolves reach parity, faction loses. You are faction, you lose.

There are no hidden win conditions.

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Re: Night 5. Obstacles Now.

Postby rekard » 24 May 2014, 21:27:45

Wolves die. Game ends.

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Re: Night 5. Obstacles Now.

Postby Hellheart » 24 May 2014, 21:39:16

rekard wrote:Wolves die. Game ends.

How does that make any sense? So NOBODY would win? The dead players would win?

Doesn't that mean that once a team loses their wolf, either they have at best a 50% chance of winning (coinflip with one remaining wolf or the other remaining human to determine winner), they have 0% chance at winning (in the prior scenario, wolf win and human win take precedence, meaning that one team needs to reach parity at or before the final 3)? I feel like that should've been emphasized more strongly at some point if that were the case. We would've protected Stigmata a lot more strongly.

The prior assumes, IMO correctly, that the faction with the wolf isn't going to let anyone else reach parity until the wolf dies. That would be one dumbass move.

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Re: Night 5. Obstacles Now.

Postby rekard » 24 May 2014, 21:56:48

The win conditions were there from the start.

You lose if wolves reach parity or they die. As direct as that. I don't really know what you assumed.

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Re: Night 5. Obstacles Now.

Postby Simple_Simon » 25 May 2014, 09:28:31

Wow fun!

So revive furin then?

((sorry for not being about yesterday, family stuff usually takes up my every Saturday))
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Re: Night 5. Obstacles Now.

Postby That PJ » 26 May 2014, 08:32:14

Hellheart wrote:Nixed this prior post after clarification. So apparently Okaros can't die. If Okaros has yet to lose a faction member, we need to lynch members of his team in sequence until he's just left. If we miss a member, we lose. If he's lost a member, we get one free "mislynch."

Sphenodont/Meta4 should have everyone mapped out at this point.

Glad to see you finally came around. :)

Yeah, Okaros' group should be at full, so you basically have to eliminate his folks or lose, because he will always maul an enemy. The downside of this is that you can't lynch the nutjob (Antipater). The upside is that he can't afford to lynch anyone else, either. Really, the five remaining non-Okaros folks need to unite. The crux of my pitch to the remaining Vampirians is that they can't afford not to vote for me. Probably won't work, but who knows.

Since we know that Max was brought over by meta4's group (an assumption I make because sphenodont outed all of us except Max), we know that that faction consisted of meta4, Ravebomb, sphenodont, and someone else. It might've been Ryvvn, or it could be Aldax or Blindsniper. Best case scenario, it was Ryvvn, and Okaros' team never needed a conversion. That'd mean his team consists of everyone not Vampiria, not Darksiders, and not the nutjob (by process of elimination, that's Rictus, Blind, and Aldax).

But in the event that Ryvvn was part of Okaros' group, you have to face the fact that there's another insurgent hanging around, and it's probably Zark (but in theory could be anyone). That makes it a lot more tricky to pin down who the final member of his team is, but I believe our analysis at this point makes it fairly certain that Rictus is a member of Okaros' crew, right?

So lynch him. It's the only way to buy yourselves a day.

And you should probably double check my analysis. But there it is, because I figure I'm probably not coming back tomorrow--and if I do, I'll be dead in the very next maul, because it'd be silly to murder anyone else.
PJ's general resignation towards fate is good enough. -Okaros
Then he went and shot himself, saved me and got himself lynched because of it. You magnificent fool! -Mister E. Meat

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Re: Night 5. Obstacles Now.

Postby Hellheart » 26 May 2014, 12:50:10

That PJ wrote:Glad to see you finally came around. :)

I make a lot of rash decisions and scramble to justify them later; most of the time I feel that it's the right thing to do but I just don't know how my subconscious reached that conclusion. In this case I'd have voted to lynch Meta4 regardless, as otherwise no player on either of those teams would ever be mauled. We would've been guaranteed a loss. I really don't like Okaros having basically 4 free mauls, but we'd be facing 4 free mauls regardless. At least those mauls can now hit somebody on Meta4's team as well.

I'd feel a lot worse about that decision if they hadn't mauled you. That really pissed me off.

Erm, I mean...I still think we should lynch Okaros since I figure we're going to lose anyway and we should just take everyone else with us! Somebody give me a Vig shot! :lol:

---

It's possible that either Simon or me were converted instead of Zark, but I think that's really unlikely. If Ryvvn was on that team, their conversion would've happened on Night 3. At that point, I had already expressed a desire to work with Okaros so I didn't need to be converted, and there was quite a bit of grumbling about Simon the prior day (and sphenodont came to his defense, not anyone on Okaros' team). I think Zark is a much more likely target than anyone else at this point, but gotta keep our mind open.

If Zark was converted, I really really hope sphenodont communicated the list of Rictus' teammates to somebody other than Zark. Meta4's team is the only group who knows for sure who makes up Rictus' squad, because his team knows the full makeup of the other 3 teams.

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Re: Night 5. Obstacles Now.

Postby Hellheart » 26 May 2014, 14:40:27

If nobody else casts a vote and it's nearly 10, who's up for lynching Okaros anyway just to piss everyone (but mostly him) off?

"Well shit guys, I thought you wanted the game to end. You certainly didn't seem very interested in the outcome. We figured we were doing you a favor!"

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Re: Night 5. Obstacles Now.

Postby Simple_Simon » 26 May 2014, 15:24:04

Hellheart wrote:If nobody else casts a vote and it's nearly 10, who's up for lynching Okaros anyway just to piss everyone (but mostly him) off?

"Well shit guys, I thought you wanted the game to end. You certainly didn't seem very interested in the outcome. We figured we were doing you a favor!"


I am, why not do something whacky in a whacky game. :lol:
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Re: Night 5. Obstacles Now.

Postby Hellheart » 26 May 2014, 16:21:00

PJ, if you're still around, how hard did Zark push for you guys to use your kill instead of a conversion? And was he the one who proposed that you vote for Meta4? I'm wondering if Okaros converted Zark and was using him to wage a proxy war against his "ally."


God, I wish I knew whether Blindsniper is the sole survivor in Meta4's faction. Either they're wiped out or he's the last one. If I knew he were the last one, I'd approach him about lynching Okaros as well.

I'd like to approach Antipater, but I don't know what his win conditions are and the idea of ending the game might alarm him enough that he votes for me instead of for Rictus. 2 votes on me means we coinflip to end the game, which would be epic but I figure I'll get a 2nd vote anyway (from Rictus or Zark...or both) and I'd like to keep it at 2.

I'm torn about the maul if we can't end it here. He's going to hit one of us - I'm certain of it - because we've put the pieces together and Zark's probably a convert or will have a death message that will unlock the encrypted PM's. I just don't know which one of us he's going to hit. It's guaranteed to be me UNLESS he figures I'm going to trigger our GA today on myself, then he'll hit you for the sure thing.

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Re: Night 5. Obstacles Now.

Postby Hellheart » 26 May 2014, 16:56:52

Chances that Zark is a convert just tripled, if not more than that, after Rictus' post. That would just get Zark to vote for him if Zark was on another team, and that's not what they'd do this close to victory.

No, I think it's overwhelmingly likely that the purpose of that post/vote is to try to make it look like Zark is not their convert.

---

Given that Antipater made a placeholder vote on you, I figured it's worth approaching him to see whether we can help him out in a way that'll hurt Okaros' team. I won't mention actually wanting to end the game unless he's the one to broach the subject.

I feel like Okaros' group has already approached Antipater, but maybe they were rebuffed. Rictus' post left an opening to go after Antipater instead.

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Re: Night 5. Obstacles Now.

Postby Simple_Simon » 26 May 2014, 17:08:56

Hellheart wrote:Chances that Zark is a convert just tripled, if not more than that, after Rictus' post. That would just get Zark to vote for him if Zark was on another team, and that's not what they'd do this close to victory.

No, I think it's overwhelmingly likely that the purpose of that post/vote is to try to make it look like Zark is not their convert.

---

Given that Antipater made a placeholder vote on you, I figured it's worth approaching him to see whether we can help him out in a way that'll hurt Okaros' team. I won't mention actually wanting to end the game unless he's the one to broach the subject.

I feel like Okaros' group has already approached Antipater, but maybe they were rebuffed. Rictus' post left an opening to go after Antipater instead.


Let me know how that goes. I ended up getting a message from Blind today around 5:30 ish, asking for help to revive furin. Any thoughts on that?
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Re: Night 5. Obstacles Now.

Postby Hellheart » 26 May 2014, 17:17:52

Well, I'm assuming that the super evil winking maniac wolf wasn't the Nutjob, and that MUST be the last neutral. The only thing I can think of is...

Ohhhh, I get it.

So Meta4 got lynched. Let's say sphenodont's worried that something's up, because he figures that's an Okaros-spurred move, right? So what does he do? Well, he names 3 players and insinuates that they're on a team. He's either hiding a faction member in there or he's giving that impression and one of the other dead players is a faction member.

Now Okaros has NO IDEA who Meta4's convert is. He know they had one, but there's no way of knowing who it actually is. Is it somebody still alive (this would explain the Zark poke)? Could it be one of the players that's going to be revived? I just said straight-up that Meta4's group knew who his whole team was. If it's a player that could be revived, he does NOT want that to happen.

Rictus' post, that PM, probably connected in that way. One thing's for sure: the only person he can be dead certain isn't part of Meta4's group is Furin. So that's the way he's going to go.

Hell, that PM alone probably confirms that Blindsniper is part of Okaros' faction.

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Re: Night 5. Obstacles Now.

Postby Simple_Simon » 26 May 2014, 17:28:41

I need to go look at the votes, but I'm not getting the vibe that Simon and Hellheart are working together.


This is pretty good. We've never worked together before and it's kind of nice that it still doesn't look like we've been on the same team all along. :D
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Re: Night 5. Obstacles Now.

Postby Hellheart » 26 May 2014, 17:36:38

I'm getting better at subterfuge in general, although I'm probably a little too open and blunt, particularly in the public thread. I need to work in another layer of secrecy in order to really work things well. But it's a learning process, and I like using the public thread to freeze people or make players nervous anyway.

My biggest problem in team games, other than my impulsiveness, is that I just don't have the experience to determine what's probably hidden in any particular game. So I tend to hold a lot of misconceptions, or ruin what I've built up by saying the wrong thing.

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Re: Night 5. Obstacles Now.

Postby Simple_Simon » 26 May 2014, 17:38:53

Hellheart wrote:I'm getting better at subterfuge in general, although I'm probably a little too open and blunt, particularly in the public thread. I need to work in another layer of secrecy in order to really work things well. But it's a learning process, and I like using the public thread to freeze people or make players nervous anyway.

My biggest problem in team games, other than my impulsiveness, is that I just don't have the experience to determine what's probably hidden in any particular game. So I tend to hold a lot of misconceptions, or ruin what I've built up by saying the wrong thing.


It happens. At least you remain a thinking man. Can't put a price on that!
For what it's worth, though, his talking to himself is awfully entertaining.-sphen
You're adorable-Rave
he is a master bullshitter so he could just take things out of his own ass or whatever comes from his mind to argue.-Rekard

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Re: Night 5. Obstacles Now.

Postby Hellheart » 26 May 2014, 17:43:34

Reaching out to Zark, under the assumption that Blindsniper is the last Okaros member. Might as well see how he responds and figure out whether I can work something out.

It feels like Okaros' group is spreading their votes out and will converge in the last minute. I need to rally votes, either on Rictus or Okaros but preferably on Okaros. I have a feeling that penalty votes will hand him the win in one or two days.

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Re: Night 5. Obstacles Now.

Postby Hellheart » 26 May 2014, 17:51:00

There's only 9 players (I think PJ had 9 and changed it to 10. I'm almost certain it's 9) right now, so I think we'll actually get game-wide conversion immunity by the time Okaros' faction can convert. That means we aren't guaranteed a loss, but it's still going to be really tricky. Especially if people miss votes.

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Re: Night 5. Obstacles Now.

Postby Hellheart » 26 May 2014, 17:56:32

If nobody's higher than 2, I probably still want to double-switch to Okaros to see if we can win a coinflip to end the game.

We'll have to see where Zark and twdog vote, though.

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Re: Night 5. Obstacles Now.

Postby Simple_Simon » 26 May 2014, 17:57:40

Hellheart wrote:If nobody's higher than 2, I probably still want to double-switch to Okaros to see if we can win a coinflip to end the game.

We'll have to see where Zark and twdog vote, though.


I know what you mean. Been sitting around waiting for a decent pile of votes for a while now. :shock:
For what it's worth, though, his talking to himself is awfully entertaining.-sphen
You're adorable-Rave
he is a master bullshitter so he could just take things out of his own ass or whatever comes from his mind to argue.-Rekard

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Re: Night 5. Obstacles Now.

Postby Hellheart » 26 May 2014, 18:06:16

I feel like I had a chance to approach Zark earlier that he would've welcomed a bit more, but we'd have wasted at least 2 PM's just trying to feel each other out. I didn't think I could get much of anything out of that, so I didn't bother.

I also miscounted with 9 players, which makes me feel dumb because we couldn't have lynched the sociopath today regardless. We would just lose.

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Re: Night 5. Obstacles Now.

Postby That PJ » 26 May 2014, 18:07:48

Been popping in off and on, but there doesn't seem to be much point. I think interest is low given the holiday weekend, and the game is just going to end with a whimper here.

I laid out three options for Vampiria the other day (kill spheno, convert spheno, convert Okaros). twdog and then Zark both moved for kill spheno. The best tactical option for us, though I personally thought trying to convert Okaros would've been the best Vampiria option. So there's that.

I shot a PM to Antipater earlier about voting to revive me and needing to coordinate with the remaining lesser factions; it does not appear to have stuck. No response, and a vote for Simon. He's really the swing vote here, so it's pretty much over. Furin will be back, but if Okaros can control the lynch onto one of you, twdog, Antipater, or the last unknown (whether it is Zark or a final meta4 remnant), it's over.

I agree, they're likely spreading and then due to converge at the end.

I don't think I'll be back before EOD, but I had a good time working with you guys for the day we had. Good game, ended too soon. I'll be interested to see the full mechanics when it's all over.

Oh, and Zark encryption stuff is unnecessary BS. You needn't trouble yourself with it. But 'moreinabit'
PJ's general resignation towards fate is good enough. -Okaros
Then he went and shot himself, saved me and got himself lynched because of it. You magnificent fool! -Mister E. Meat

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Re: Night 5. Obstacles Now.

Postby Hellheart » 26 May 2014, 18:34:50

That question I just asked, it's been irking me for forever. It can be answered two ways: either 2 players were already converted and one had a 50% chance of immunity, OR 1 player has been converted (MaxFrost) and 2 teams are looking to convert, so if they happen to target the same non-immune player that'll have a 50% chance of failure.

That only works if one player got auto-immunity. I think that would've been Furin, because his "lover" (Admetus) had already been mauled.

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Re: Night 5. Obstacles Now.

Postby Hellheart » 26 May 2014, 18:44:42

Shit, shit, I got it. The 2nd scenario is true, but the other team wasn't Okaros' team; It was dferrantino's team that was competing for conversion. Since it was 4.5 instead of 4.3 (~36%), only two teams could convert that day. Could be another explanation, but that fits.

Blindsniper is the 4th Okaros member.

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Re: Night 5. Obstacles Now.

Postby Hellheart » 26 May 2014, 18:56:06

Scratch that. Joining you on Aldax.

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Re: Night 5. Obstacles Now.

Postby Hellheart » 26 May 2014, 18:59:11

GA Protect Hellheart --> Simple_Simon

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Re: Night 5. Obstacles Now.

Postby Hellheart » 26 May 2014, 19:00:38

Bah, was gonna flip those when I realized they're voting for Antipater. Maul's going to you or twdog, probably you. Not sure though, depends on how savvy they think I am.

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Re: Night 5. Obstacles Now.

Postby Hellheart » 26 May 2014, 19:02:37

Please please tell me the Nutjob has lynch protection. That would be insane, and awesome.

Or that we blocked a maul. That would work too. Probably not unless Zark put in a GA too, though.


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