Torture Cubicle 3

Features include: king sized beds, free wi-fi, HBO on demand, and torture cubicles.
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Re: Torture Cubicle 3

Postby Ozymandias » 06 Mar 2014, 13:18:34

I think some of Rictus' problems today stem from his initial implicit attack of fuzzmz and ThatPJ, when he said he was willing to listen to Ryvvn's arguments that one of those two was a Wolf.

Experienced players will realize that this is just prudent open-mindedness on his part, but newer players might misinterpret it as a willingness to vote for anyone but himself, which would of course be Wolfy.

If Rictus had simply asked Ryvvn to defend himself (i.e., just explain why Ryyvn was not a Wolf), then he might have been able to avoid alienating That PJ and fuzzmz.

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Re: Torture Cubicle 3

Postby Smirker » 06 Mar 2014, 13:23:19

Damn my creative reading... I keep reading the topic as a torture CUTICLE. At least it's mildly amusing as we'll (to me)

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Re: Torture Cubicle 3

Postby Hellheart » 06 Mar 2014, 13:25:15

I agree with Ozymandias here. Show conviction without locking your vote. Ryvvn never defended himself, backing off looks odd.

rekard wrote:When you go into the unknown, how certain are you? How do you know you are right?

After I correctly pen in one or two players as lock human through completely arbitrary tone-reading methods that nobody else is going to trust, I work off of probability. I can't be sure I'm right, but some affiliations are far more probable than others.

Hellheart, sometimes it won't be about logic, but about how players feel about you. You could turn into the Perfect Wolf Hunter, but it only takes one thought : "Why is he so perfect? He probably is a wolf" and BAM! you get lynched. At that moment, player perception is what will matter.

And this links to the above. I can point out situations where if I were a wolf, I would have voted differently. I can show that Ryvvn is the wolf through 3 different angles, all spoilered with completely independent threads of logic that arrive at the same conclusion - his voting in the past 3 days, uncharacteristic (for anyone) or absent emotions that are at odds with the content of his posts in the last 3 days culminating in a post with exclamation marks when fuzzmz is leading because he sees the win coming and can't help himself, and contrasting his posts in this final day to his posts in the final day in the Pratchett game (where he was human) and in the Lovers Game (where he was human).

I would tell people to pick whatever line of logic appeals to them the most since all three of them clearly show that Ryvvn is the last wolf. I'd say that I am absolutely convinced that he must be the wolf, and that anyone voting elsewhere has to either refute my argument, make a counter-argument that shows why my logic might be distorted, or admit that their choice has nothing to do with logic, probability, or game sense and they either don't have the time or the inclination to get any better at the game.

I'll soften that as much as I can without seeming like I'm unsure, but it'd still be somewhat overbearing and harsh. I'd also be completely willing to change tracks if someone actually did point out flaws.

This clearly shows why I'm regularly bandwagoned and shot, of course.

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Re: Torture Cubicle 3

Postby rekard » 06 Mar 2014, 13:30:39

Aggressiveness has a potential of alienating people. Rictus tone can have that nature at least times.

And yeah Hellheart. Maybe even if you did all that, someone could think " You're doing too much effort to kill him" and lynch there it goes.

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Re: Torture Cubicle 3

Postby Hellheart » 06 Mar 2014, 13:47:36

rekard wrote:Aggressiveness has a potential of alienating people. Rictus tone can have that nature at least times.

And yeah Hellheart. Maybe even if you did all that, someone could think " You're doing too much effort to kill him" and lynch there it goes.

I completely agree. The stark harshness is what I'd use if I'm trying to convince Ozymandias, who would take that last part as a challenge and read through all three lines of logic. If I'm trying to convince Ryvvn (and the subject is someone other than Ryvvn), I remove the last part entirely and probably use the votes and the uncharacteristic posts spoilers by themselves - there's no reason to be harsh with him because when he's a human he's willing to try and he respects my reasoning enough to at least look through it. The major issue is that I'll default to harsher than I necessarily need to be when I'm dealing with a player that I'm unfamiliar with or that I haven't seen much reasoning from...because I simply don't know how to get through to them or whether I even can, the first step is to ensure that I at least got their attention for better or for worse.

And of course when it's outside of like F5 I can't specifically appeal to anyone without harming my own argument. Although I will start addressing smaller posts to a player that I have a strong human read on instead of stupidly trying to incorporate that into my general post.

I've abandoned the extensive wolf case style in the past few games entirely because it's just too much for players to read when there's a lot of people still left. The recent attempts I've made at making my arguments more concise make me want to try the full-wolf-case approach again. My read posts are way too disjointed at the moment and I think I'd do better by returning to what I know while still limiting both the scope and number of my analysis posts.

I do like where my posting is going. My volume hasn't changed much, but the majority of my posts are now either bantering, fluff, or interactions with other players to potentially get a human/wolf read.

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Re: Torture Cubicle 3

Postby rekard » 06 Mar 2014, 14:34:24

Mwahaha. Even in death my words seed doubt. I think we all here are a bit biased by knowledge lenses. Being out there without knowing what's what, it can provide a confusing view. Also PJ is saying the scenario I hoped for a possible victory. It fits if you consider the possibility of a wolf caving to pressure.

If you apply that coating to a "wolf" Rictus, what he says makes sense. It's not the truth, but it's a possible scenario.

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Re: Torture Cubicle 3

Postby Hellheart » 06 Mar 2014, 14:42:51

rekard wrote:Mwahaha. Even in death my words seed doubt. I think we all here are a bit biased by knowledge lenses. Being out there without knowing what's what, it can provide a confusing view. Also PJ is saying the scenario I hoped for a possible victory. It fits if you consider the possibility of a wolf caving to pressure.

If you apply that coating to a "wolf" Rictus, what he says makes sense. It's not the truth, but it's a possible scenario.

The "rictus is a wolf" argument simply doesn't hold water - yesterday Rictus could've EOD-switched to fuzzmz, the day prior Rictus could've joined Ryvvn on Blindsniper and you could've switched at EOD.

And then on Day 3, why would there be a pretty little spread between you and CAD and then a big red blob of Admetus and Rictus on Visigoth? Did the wolves decide to sacrifice two consecutive wolves since Rictus' tying vote is going to make either you or Rictus look hella wolfy? Did they somehow suddenly decide that Visigoth was the guy that should be lynched?

I just think there's way too much to explain. With Ryvvn, he casts early votes or he casts off-wagon votes when a human is clearly going to be lynched. Nothing needs to be explained.

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Re: Torture Cubicle 3

Postby Hellheart » 06 Mar 2014, 14:54:56

Rictus needed to unlock and sell out on Ryvvn though. You should know better, Rictus: NEVER buy a Ryvvn sympathy play. Some people just don't learn until they've been directly burned.

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Re: Torture Cubicle 3

Postby rekard » 06 Mar 2014, 15:17:36

Hellheart, you are again assuming humans and wolves behave perfectly either ineptly or smartly.

It doesn't matter how convoluted it is. As long as the other person thinks "that makes sense", that's what matters in the end. Also you forget one little truth: players can panic.

"What he did was illogical."
"He panicked". There. BOOM. Your argument gets destroyed if the players believe it. You can't explain panic.

As simple as that. And that's not exclusive to wolves.

Various times, humans have caught wolves for completely wrong reasons.

What Rictus needs is to persuade. Not just use the correct logic, but say it in a convincing way.

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Re: Torture Cubicle 3

Postby Ozymandias » 06 Mar 2014, 15:29:03

Rictus should have led with the last part of his argument-- that's the strongest part.

The stuff about Ryvvn in the F5 thread is I think just serving as a distraction.

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Re: Torture Cubicle 3

Postby Hellheart » 06 Mar 2014, 15:33:16

The specific F5 thread post Rictus is referencing had to be done for metagame reasons - it wasn't Ryvvn trying to salvage human cred, it was Ryvvn doing exactly what human-Ryvvn would have done. HOWEVER, I think Ryvvn's F5 thread posts in the past couple days are VERY telling. That's an excited Ryvvn that can't post anywhere else. I would've thought it was odd enough to point out in the game thread were I still alive.

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Re: Torture Cubicle 3

Postby Hellheart » 06 Mar 2014, 15:53:15

What Rictus needs is to persuade. Not just use the correct logic, but say it in a convincing way.

This is what I've spent the last 2 or 3 games working on almost exclusively. It's more a matter of practice than anything else. Everyone has an arguing method that appeals to them, it's just a matter of discovering what it is.

Hellheart, you are again assuming humans and wolves behave perfectly either ineptly or smartly.

It doesn't matter how convoluted it is. As long as the other person thinks "that makes sense", that's what matters in the end. Also you forget one little truth: players can panic.

"What he did was illogical."
"He panicked". There. BOOM. Your argument gets destroyed if the players believe it. You can't explain panic.

I agree, but you have to understand that if we take what you're saying to the extreme, then I can't ever expect players to listen to logic and should solely make appeals to emotion unless I know exactly what they'll accept as reasoning. I know it won't always work, but I have to believe it'll work more often than not for it to be worth doing at all.

I'm moving back to full wolf-cases because I know that any given argument won't always work and I want alternate angles because something's going to stick. Honestly, I'd go right back to Day 8 as my strongest argument, where the content of human-Ryvvn's posts only make sense if he freaks out near EOD because he is clearly convinced that the humans will lose if CAD is lynched. He had some hedging in his posts, but that was pained hedging that he seemed to seriously doubt. Instead of freaking out, though, he makes a totally noncommittal "welp, hope you're right" with a neutral face. On lynch-or-lose. Yeah fucking right. And then that odd post with the exclamation points the following day because he couldn't contain his excitement.

And here his early posts were clearly disjointed - panic, as you said, and his analysis posts - if you can call them that - aren't very detailed. In both of his F3's as a human, he spent a long time on a strong, clearly articulated post that summarized how he felt. And then he voted. No sympathy plays beforehand, no appeals to the other players. "This is what I know and how I feel, this is my vote, take it as you will." THAT is human-Ryvvn. This is clearly not human-Ryvvn.

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Re: Torture Cubicle 3

Postby Iron Clad Burrito » 06 Mar 2014, 16:03:24

To future everyone-who-was-alive-on-the-last-day:

My PERSONAL opinion is that Ryvvn was trying to be honest about things, maybe cut him a little slack. He appears to have been looking out for the integrity of the game, which is admirable even though the move might have cost the wolves the game.

To future Ryvvn:

A lot of dead folk were telling Furin to not count your vote, either. Maybe in the future just PM the GM if you want to make that kind of statement, in order to keep nontroversies from turning in to controversies.

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Re: Torture Cubicle 3

Postby Simple_Simon » 06 Mar 2014, 16:24:38

heh, what a game this turned out to be. I've been keeping an eye in here and in the day threads. Must be an exciting one for all those left alive.

Furin excellent game, had a brief but fun time for sure.

Good luck to everyone left, you have all worked hard and played exceptionally well to make it to that this point.

edit: that = this
For what it's worth, though, his talking to himself is awfully entertaining.-sphen
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he is a master bullshitter so he could just take things out of his own ass or whatever comes from his mind to argue.-Rekard

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Re: Torture Cubicle 3

Postby Hellheart » 06 Mar 2014, 16:30:47

Is it worse that I noticed Jokerfish so quickly, or that I know who he is because I've spent so much time charting affiliation-based voting patterns? :lol:

...Back on topic, I don't blame Rictus for the move back since he didn't seem to be convinced, but he still got duped by a Ryvvn sympathy play and that makes me groan inwardly.

This is the SECOND TIME a wolf-Ryvvn sympathy play has worked. Stop letting him get away with this!
Last edited by Hellheart on 06 Mar 2014, 16:32:58, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Torture Cubicle 3

Postby Iron Clad Burrito » 06 Mar 2014, 16:31:33

HOLY SHIT JOKERFISH IS BACK

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Re: Torture Cubicle 3

Postby FurinMirado » 06 Mar 2014, 16:33:16

It's the power of TWG LXVI! Hallelujah! :flail:

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Re: Torture Cubicle 3

Postby Omega » 06 Mar 2014, 16:37:22

Iron Clad Burrito wrote:HOLY SHIT JOKERFISH IS BACK


++

Good to see a few old faces come back.

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Re: Torture Cubicle 3

Postby Simple_Simon » 06 Mar 2014, 16:37:59

rekard wrote:Hellheart, you are again assuming humans and wolves behave perfectly either ineptly or smartly.

It doesn't matter how convoluted it is. As long as the other person thinks "that makes sense", that's what matters in the end. Also you forget one little truth: players can panic.

"What he did was illogical."
"He panicked". There. BOOM. Your argument gets destroyed if the players believe it. You can't explain panic.

As simple as that. And that's not exclusive to wolves.

Various times, humans have caught wolves for completely wrong reasons.

What Rictus needs is to persuade. Not just use the correct logic, but say it in a convincing way.


(this is mostly just an excuse to post another cat gif ;))

Image

Edit: What I mean by the above image is that I agree with rekard. You don't always have to be right, you just have to seem right enough. If you are, someone might get blapped in the face for it, and that's always a good time.
Last edited by Simple_Simon on 06 Mar 2014, 16:39:50, edited 1 time in total.
For what it's worth, though, his talking to himself is awfully entertaining.-sphen
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Re: Torture Cubicle 3

Postby Ozymandias » 06 Mar 2014, 16:39:18

Simon, your cat clips were hilarious all game-- this may have to become your go-to posting style.

You are the Charger of cat clips.
Last edited by Ozymandias on 06 Mar 2014, 16:42:57, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Torture Cubicle 3

Postby Omega » 06 Mar 2014, 16:41:04

Ozymandias wrote:You are the Charger of cat clips.


You're right! Absolutely.

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Re: Torture Cubicle 3

Postby Simple_Simon » 06 Mar 2014, 16:42:33

Ozymandias wrote:Simon, your cat clips were hilarious all game-- this may be have to become your go-to posting style.

You are the Charger of cat clips.


[+] Is the mic on
Image


Thanks. Actually that means a lot (really) because I do put a good deal of effort into my image based posts. I grew my cat gif folder for months in preparation for a game to use them. I have just under 100 or so of them so I can pick and chose them based on the emotion, or action I am attempting to display in that post. I can't be assed at the moment, but I'm pretty sure I did it with the Spider-Man meme pictures a while back too, with some degree of success.

Also the way I figure it, a chuckle is always a good thing 'round here :)

Edit: added cat gif ;)
Last edited by Simple_Simon on 06 Mar 2014, 16:46:07, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Torture Cubicle 3

Postby rekard » 06 Mar 2014, 16:45:44

Paranoia strikes again. Such a cruel mistress.just 1:15 more!

Yay!

Image

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Re: Torture Cubicle 3

Postby Iron Clad Burrito » 06 Mar 2014, 16:47:37

:facepalm:

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Re: Torture Cubicle 3

Postby Omega » 06 Mar 2014, 16:49:44

Ryvvn should save his 1,000th post for a victory post.

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Re: Torture Cubicle 3

Postby twdog » 06 Mar 2014, 16:54:02

Noooo!!!!!

He'll accidently post it like 9 seconds before EOD and get lynched!
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Re: Torture Cubicle 3

Postby DastardlyOldMan » 06 Mar 2014, 16:59:59

Iron Clad Burrito wrote:To future everyone-who-was-alive-on-the-last-day:

My PERSONAL opinion is that Ryvvn was trying to be honest about things, maybe cut him a little slack. He appears to have been looking out for the integrity of the game, which is admirable even though the move might have cost the wolves the game.

To future Ryvvn:

A lot of dead folk were telling Furin to not count your vote, either. Maybe in the future just PM the GM if you want to make that kind of statement, in order to keep nontroversies from turning in to controversies.

Just chiming in here (because I can't find the drnka thread) with a ++++++++

We've been taking a lot of liberties with the F5 thread. When I started, it was a place to post "F5F5F5F5F5F5" while you waited for the day to roll. Current players should really not be posting anything of substance to that thread, other than to remind the GM that we're all FUCKING WAITING ON YOU TO ROLL THE DAY THREAD, GODDAMMIT, you lazy sack of . . . cat. Now people start to bring up in-game stuff like "I didn't mean to offend anyone with that post" or "hey - check this." and it contributes to the undesireable meta-aspects of an ongoing game.

If you have a concern with how something is going in the current game, a PM to the GM is absolutely the right move. If the GM doesn't agree with you, then you bitch him out in the day thread (Hi, RaveBomb!)

But I also +++++ the point about: I don't think Ryvvn was being malicious, adding on, I don't think Rictus was accusing of such. My very first game, FurinMirado no-mauled on the day that Evil_Superman missed his vote, which introduced a meta-game doubt into my head, which pissed me off to no end. None of the players involved intentionally did anything to meta the game (at the time, I didn't realize the wolven benefits to no-mauling a 4:1 game to get to 3:1, and that bastard Furin didn't bother to explain it to me at the time), but it's there and it's in your head and OMGWTF.

IMHO, don't post off the game-thread unless you know you're absolutely certain that what you're posting is completely current-game-neutral. Even twdog's post today about fuzzmz-as-a-vampire was a bit too much for my personal taste - from the dead thread, it's HAHA! funny, but to Rictus, he's reading that and rereading that and analyzing why twdog punctuated it the exact way that he did and OMGWTF, and now Rictus is voting for fuzzmz, even though it may be entirely subconscious to him (probably not in this case - not screaming at you personally twdog, just a very convenient example of something I would not have done).

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Re: Torture Cubicle 3

Postby twdog » 06 Mar 2014, 17:05:39

A few minutes after I made the f5 post it occurred to that hadn't been a good idea. But I didn't want to edit it or delete because I felt that'd just draw even more suspicious attention to it.

But you're right, and I'll advoid that sort of thing in the future. I agree with you about not letting current game stuff bleed into the f5 thread
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Re: Torture Cubicle 3

Postby rekard » 06 Mar 2014, 17:24:35

Do I really spell Ryvvn wrong?

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Re: Torture Cubicle 3

Postby Simple_Simon » 06 Mar 2014, 17:30:06

rekard wrote:Do I really spell Ryvvn wrong?


I have no idea, I can't say I've noticed it. Sometimes I even forget you're here ....

[+] Woah there you are
Image


However in my defense I can't hardly tell the difference between Ryvvn and Rictus sometimes. Something about the two of them get's me all mixed up all the time. I'm sure that's a worse offense. :evil:
For what it's worth, though, his talking to himself is awfully entertaining.-sphen
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Re: Torture Cubicle 3

Postby rekard » 06 Mar 2014, 18:03:45

Victory is sweeter when it's unexpected.

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Re: Torture Cubicle 3

Postby FurinMirado » 06 Mar 2014, 18:08:31

It's going to take me a bit to get this write up done. The day ends with wolf victory.


What do I do to open up the threads to all?

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Re: Torture Cubicle 3

Postby Admetus » 06 Mar 2014, 18:11:42

Omega wrote:
Ozymandias wrote:You are the Charger of cat clips.


You're right! Absolutely.

Thirded!
Simple_Simon wrote:However in my defense I can't hardly tell the difference between Ryvvn and Rictus sometimes. Something about the two of them get's me all mixed up all the time. I'm sure that's a worse offense. :evil:

It's Smirker and Stigmata for me. When I posted on the infamous Day 2 that I had to go check that I hadn't gotten them confused, I wasn't kidding.

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Re: Torture Cubicle 3

Postby Iron Clad Burrito » 06 Mar 2014, 18:15:43

FurinMirado wrote:It's going to take me a bit to get this write up done. The day ends with wolf victory.


What do I do to open up the threads to all?


I'm online, I'll do it. :)

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Re: Torture Cubicle 3

Postby FurinMirado » 06 Mar 2014, 18:17:25

Iron Clad Burrito wrote:
FurinMirado wrote:It's going to take me a bit to get this write up done. The day ends with wolf victory.


What do I do to open up the threads to all?


I'm online, I'll do it. :)

Thanks!

Day 11 is up. Thanks to everyone for playing!

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Re: Torture Cubicle 3

Postby DastardlyOldMan » 06 Mar 2014, 18:19:22

Once again - great game to the wolves, there - and Ryvvn, very well done on not panicking (at least in the day thread) after you realized how bad that was (ditto for Admetus and his mispost, which I did not catch myself - but I thought it was ~a bit odd in the edited version).

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Re: Torture Cubicle 3

Postby Simple_Simon » 06 Mar 2014, 18:23:12

Admetus wrote:
Omega wrote:
Ozymandias wrote:You are the Charger of cat clips.


You're right! Absolutely.

Thirded!
Simple_Simon wrote:However in my defense I can't hardly tell the difference between Ryvvn and Rictus sometimes. Something about the two of them get's me all mixed up all the time. I'm sure that's a worse offense. :evil:

It's Smirker and Stigmata for me. When I posted on the infamous Day 2 that I had to go check that I hadn't gotten them confused, I wasn't kidding.


lol, I can safely assume we've all been there. I know for certain I have. That being said I've had much worse ...

[+] moments of stupidity
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I can't recall the exact game but there was a point where I had spent a good deal of time concocting some convoluted story about someone just about to post it and for whatever reason I had decided to double check the player list. Low and behold, that player wasn't even in that game.

Sometimes I really should ...

[+] pay more attention to what is around me
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For what it's worth, though, his talking to himself is awfully entertaining.-sphen
You're adorable-Rave
he is a master bullshitter so he could just take things out of his own ass or whatever comes from his mind to argue.-Rekard

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Re: Torture Cubicle 3

Postby Okaros » 07 Mar 2014, 05:44:39

Thanks for the game, Furin! It was a delight to watch.



Also, whichever of the admins had the idea to give Ryvvn the "Teflon Coating" Illuminati card for his avatar? Thanks for reading my mind on that. :)
I kind of assume Okaros is out to backstab me until proven otherwise. - DOM

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Re: Torture Cubicle 3

Postby sphenodont » 07 Mar 2014, 09:16:24

Okaros wrote:Also, whichever of the admins had the idea to give Ryvvn the "Teflon Coating" Illuminati card for his avatar? Thanks for reading my mind on that. :)


Erm, yes. We read your mind. Exactly it. Thank you.

[+] move along, now
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