The End

You're in it.
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dferrantino
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The End

Postby dferrantino » 01 Apr 2014, 10:54:36

Hellheart was so busy shouting "It's me! I'm the wolf! Kill me!" that you didn't even notice the man walk in.

He cleared his throat. Hellheart kept shouting.

He did it again, only louder. Hellheart kept shouting.

He sighed, shook his head, and walked up to Hellheart. Everyone else noticed, but Hellheart kept shouting.

He put his hand on Hellheart's shoulder. He finally stopped shouting.

"So, let me get this straight...you want to die?"

"Yes."

"Why?"

"Because I figured it out, I'm the wolf! Kill me and we win!"

"You do realize this means you lose the game, right?"

"Wait...why?"

"Because if you're a wolf, they're not. If they win, you don't."

"...I hadn't quite thought of it that way..."

"Well, it's a good thing I figured that out for you. In any case, it's irrelevant. You're not the last wolf."

"Wait...what?" Everyone murmured, confusedly.

"No, because I am."

In an instant, the man changed. He grew about 2 feet taller, gained about 300 pounds, and sprouted a sleek coat of grey fur. Which, quite quickly, became covered in the blood of everyone left in the room, except Nitestorm. He left him for last.

As Nitestorm stood, frozen in fear, the wolf began speaking to him.

"Do you remember your first day here, when I said the winners would have their wildest dreams made reality?"

"...No...no it can't be..."

Suddenly, the transformation reversed, and standing in front of Nitestorm was none other than Ozymandias. They looked deeply into each others' eyes, embraced, and lived happily ever after.

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Re: The End

Postby dferrantino » 01 Apr 2014, 10:57:38

Access should be open enough for you all to see the shenanigans, and for the dead to post here.

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Re: The End

Postby dferrantino » 01 Apr 2014, 10:59:15

Oh, and technically Hellheart was right and the Humans won.

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Re: The End

Postby Admetus » 01 Apr 2014, 11:14:07

Yay, good game everyone!

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Re: The End

Postby DastardlyOldMan » 01 Apr 2014, 11:36:07

Interesting game everyone - there were some pretty impressive flips back & forth in there, and I think the RNG may have hated us all during that game. Thanks for running this one, dfer, and sacrificing your CPU time!

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Re: The End

Postby Okaros » 01 Apr 2014, 11:44:20

dferr, thank you for the running this game! This was my first proper quantum game and it definitely was a lot of fun and lived up to its reputation for hijinks and RNG-spoiled plans.
I had a blast playing, and I hope all of my treachery wasn't *too* aggravating for the victims. If you want to find some way to horribly betray me in a future game then I think I hit the level of treachery I was aiming for. ;)
I kind of assume Okaros is out to backstab me until proven otherwise. - DOM

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Re: The End

Postby That PJ » 01 Apr 2014, 12:01:31

Thanks for the game, dferrantino.

Having a hard time figuring out how I feel about this first Quantum game.
PJ's general resignation towards fate is good enough. -Okaros
Then he went and shot himself, saved me and got himself lynched because of it. You magnificent fool! -Mister E. Meat

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Re: The End

Postby Admetus » 01 Apr 2014, 12:03:58

Are you saying your feelings are in an undetermined state? Because that should be settled down by now. If you're still unsure in four hours, please see a Doctorate in Physics.

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Re: The End

Postby Nitestorm » 01 Apr 2014, 12:19:50

Sorry I wasn't involved as I wanted to be, but I was busier than I anticipated.

That being said, how the hell did I survive this long? :shock:

Was it because I was largely quiet for once? I need to remember to rectify that. :ugeek:

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Re: The End

Postby Hellheart » 01 Apr 2014, 12:20:09

(( I already have the RP on this one figured out, but I also just woke up so it'll take me a little while to fully hash it out. If you recall the -inators I've mentioned up to this point or are familiar with the show, Doof would know this was coming and would have the easiest out ever.

I think everyone who Seer'ed you got Human returns, Nitestorm, so there was never any real drive to kill you there. And if you weren't scheming in any groups, then you wouldn't have been a target in the Alliance Wars either. Staying by the sideline here kept you completely safe, but if you had been tossing out Wolf visions then you probably die by Day 4.

I still can't believe that I ended up having an invalid Seer list that let us pick out the alphas like that. People would've probably settled on Ryvvn via blind choice, but if it had been anyone else then we would've needed that list to have any chance at all. ))

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Re: The End

Postby DastardlyOldMan » 01 Apr 2014, 13:07:11

Hellheart wrote:I still can't believe that I ended up having an invalid Seer list that let us pick out the alphas like that. People would've probably settled on Ryvvn via blind choice, but if it had been anyone else then we would've needed that list to have any chance at all. ))

That does raise up an interesting point that we briefly touched on in the dead thread - should the GM let people know that their Seer list is invalid? Because that did give a lot of information. Then again, not sure there was *any* chance of human victory without that info, at that point.

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Re: The End

Postby Aldax » 01 Apr 2014, 13:07:48

And that's a wrap Thanks dfer for the game!
Moral of the story: Never self-vig. - rekard

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Re: The End

Postby Okaros » 01 Apr 2014, 13:13:45

DastardlyOldMan wrote:That does raise up an interesting point that we briefly touched on in the dead thread - should the GM let people know that their Seer list is invalid? Because that did give a lot of information. Then again, not sure there was *any* chance of human victory without that info, at that point.


My analysis didn't require HH's invalid seer list to work/be functional and could've given the humans their needed "out" if I'd been able to post it earlier (not having the Ryvvn vs. spheno maul question sorted out led me to waffling about posting it and holding back as a result).

As it was, I posted it late enough that it wasn't going to have much of an impact if it was the only guidance out there.
I kind of assume Okaros is out to backstab me until proven otherwise. - DOM

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Re: The End

Postby Hellheart » 01 Apr 2014, 13:24:42

(( Below is OOC ))

(Huge amount of comments relating to my sacrifice)

Going into today, I was hoping that one of two events happened, since I wasn't sure about Meta4's Seer claim but I didn't see Nitestorm being potential wolf at all:

1) Aldax is still wolf-eligible and we've both mauled him. Lynch him for the win.
2) Aldax resolves as human and dies. Ask Visigoth for a coinflip to decide who wins.

Neither of those are a sacrifice for me. However, once Nitestorm resolves as potential wolf the ONLY lynch that can result in a human win is me.

And considering that my plan was actively or passively worked against by half of the players in the game, and especially considering how hard That PJ was trying to help - frustrating the crap out of himself in the process - before I stepped in, I felt that I owed it to that PJ and Visigoth (for the Star TWG) to bite the bullet here. This rewards effort, rewards total cooperation with me (which if it isn't obvious will get me to do everything I can to help us, or at least you, win), and helps even a score with Visigoth that I felt was long overdue.

Not to mention that my plan won despite what should have been a crippling amount of interference. And that feels DAMN good.

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Re: The End

Postby That PJ » 01 Apr 2014, 13:37:37

Hellheart mentioned a move to the Day Thread, but I'm responding to his post in response to DOM in the Dead Thread.

Hellheart wrote:
DastardlyOldMan wrote:
Hellheart wrote:If/When DOM finds out that I've been the mole, my survival rate is going to plummet. That worries me quite a bit as well.

It was pretty much Day 1, Hellheart (maybe Day 2?). I mean, c'mon man, you voted against us EVERY SINGLE DAY (I could give two shits about the RP excuse you tried to drop) - it was rather obvious that you weren't on our side. You had all the subterfuge of a brick wall.
(( I didn't actively work against you until the call was made to kill Zark, which didn't happen until like an hour before that EOD. I wasn't fully committed to your alliance because you weren't sharing much of anything, but now I know that's because you got a peek into a forum where That PJ was a mole so that explains that nicely. Still, you didn't try to bring me in to anything either :p

My intent was to set up a mirror of precisely what Zark was trying to do with Top of the Sixes. He wanted (or said he wanted) Zark-DOM-Me in an inner circle with Us+others in a larger alliance. I wanted to bring in Okaros to the larger alliance so that 1. Less chance of my alliances being interested in opposing goals; 2. I had two contingencies in the event that my allies were not particularly interested in being allies; and 3. If random chance caused one alliance to fall/resolve a way I wasn't happy with, I could lean on the other.

But my intent--and execution, I hope--was never to sell out one alliance for the other. Even after the forum glitch of indeterminate catastrophe meant one of them was pretty much dead. Putting a kibosh on talking about it actually made the matter more frustrating, because then I knew that one or more of them knew about Admetus/Okaros, but not whether I was in it, etc. They couldn't demand information, I wasn't going to volunteer anything without a reason, and we were sort of at an impasse. Likewise, I didn't betray the Okaros/Admetus alliance, except to indicate that I knew something to invalidate their candidacy as alphas.

I didn't mind telling Okaros about Zark, since it was abundantly clear that Zark was talking to a ton of people. But I don't think I ever mentioned DOM to Okaros/Admetus, nor Admetus to DOM, Hellheart, or Zark. Of course, then it became clear that Okaros was playing as many angles as Zark, so I realized that trust might be misplaced... kinda late by then.

At some point this came to a head where nobody was doing much of anything in the alliances because they were all working other angles; then the weekend had me working a bunch and my interest lapsed hard on Day 5. Which, as it turned out, was a pivotal day.

Was quite happy when PMs were removed. I don't mind PMs in theory--or teams--but I think it was unbalanced in this execution. Not sure if it was the inactive players or the Quantum-ness or what, but at some point it did feel very 'what's the point?'

Anyway, thanks again Hellheart for turning the end game into something I enjoyed.

Although, for the record, DOM was spot-on: it was pretty clear you weren't dedicated to that particular alliance. Didn't help the Okaros and Admetus would drop references about you and/or Ryvvn (which is part of why I figured you/Ryvvn must be working together in some capacity).
PJ's general resignation towards fate is good enough. -Okaros
Then he went and shot himself, saved me and got himself lynched because of it. You magnificent fool! -Mister E. Meat

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Re: The End

Postby Hellheart » 01 Apr 2014, 14:02:12

Doofenshmirtz Night Action Posts

I incorporated both my own posts and things I noticed in the thread that I thought Doof could play off of for a lot of RP that I'm really proud of.

Night 1, referencing a post on Day 1 when Norm didn't understand why sphendont was Perry the Platypus:

I spy with my little eye, something that begins with the letter...B. It also involves the letters P and S.

B stands for Box!

Very good Norm, now what's inside the box.

P is inside the box! I'm good at this game!

No, Norm, there is no pee inside the box. ...Well maybe there is. It has been more than a day since I trapped Perry the Platypus. The answer I was looking for is Perry the Platypus. He is inside the box.

I understand now! Perry the Platypus is P!

No, he's a platy...you know what, this could be funny down the road. You're absolutely right Norm. Now, what does the S mean?

The B is full of S and P!

...Okay, I can see where this is going now, and I'm just going to stop you right there. I'm just going to do all of the typing from now on.

I will Seer and Maul Perry the Platypus sphenodont.


Night 2, which occurs after the box is empty, but before Perry's reappearance. Also references Doof's reaction to rekard's pointing, which clearly broke the color codes on Aldax's posts for two entire days. But hey, it's better than what happened Day 0, where rekard KILLS OZYMANDIAS simply by pointing. What a dick!

This creates a story arc that leads to Perry the Platypus' reappearance on Day 3. It's not difficult if you know Phineas and Ferb or how cartoons work in general, but the first person to figure it out gets lynch/maul/Vig immunity from me until Day 5 in the next "normal" TWG.

Hellheart wrote:Dear Diary: I spend the entire day trying to lure out Perry the Platypus. I walked through the entire building while loudly proclaiming my next evil scheme, I created a Self Destruct-inator, and I even randomly fired a couple of my -inators into the tri-state area. Still no sign of Perry the Platypus. I've locked away his hat so nobody steals it, and we're the only ones that know that the key is behind the false panel in the false wall behind the false statue in the false evil lair.

I shouldn't have gotten my hopes up. I'm just a rival to Perry the Platypus, and that's all I'll ever be. All of my evil schemes seem hollow and petty when Perry the Platypus doesn't suddenly appear to thwart them. There's whole chapters of my life that I've never shared with anyone, but I thought maybe he could be the one to change that. It's sad to think that I'll never come to the realization that I mostly hate my brother Roger because I once ran for school president and lost to a baking soda volcano.

Rekard's reckless pointing continues to terrorize our group. I know we decided to forgive and forget, but after today's incident I can't stop thinking about that terrible accident on Day 0. The whole scene keeps replaying itself in my head: Ryvvn entering the room, rekard spinning around to point at him, and poor Ozymandias who was just in the wrong place at the wrong time. He didn't deserve to be disemboweled like that. It was senseless in every meaning of the word.

rekard has to go, even though he's far more wolf than I'll ever hope to be. I just hope that I can spot FurinMirado before he can exact revenge upon me.


I couldn't get a good in-character Night 3 post, but that post early on Day 3 is the best in-character post made all game by a HUGE margin. I love the shit out of it.

Night 4 is probably the worst of the posts. It's not awful, just not terribly interesting. Still, the "Foxy Lady" was a nice touch I thought :lol:

Hellheart wrote:Perry the Platypus, how unlikely to see you...and by unlikely, I mean TOTALLY LIKELY! ---click--- Why did you avoid my trap? I had a big red "X" on the ground so you knew where to stand and everything. Look, it's right over...

CLANG.

Look what you did now, Perry the Platypus. I'm caught in my own trap and the backstory for my newest evil scheme involves a projector all the way on the other side of the room. Are you even listening to---no don't touch that, you're not allowed to foil my plans before I can even tell you what they are. Perry the Platypus what are you doing, stop--no, that big red button is not the self-destruct button don't push--

click

sigh I told youuuu, in the next 10 seconds the See Into the Soul-inator will determine once and for all whether the foxy lady across the hall is interes...oh so now you're going to turn the -inator to shoot at somebody else. Very clever Perry the Platypus, but sooner or later you're going to have to let me go and get into the trap so we can do this the right way. What's come over you anyway?

Yes, I know that's your hat, I don't see what that has to do...ohhh, you're pointing to the hole in your hat. Wait, you think that hole was made by me? No, no, you have it all wrong, I swear that hole was already there! My Unlock-inator had nothing to do with...you can't just walk away like this Perry the Platypus, somebody has to let me out of this trap. Can you hear me Perry the Platypus?

NORM! Get in here and let me out of my trap! I don't even know where my -inator was pointing when it finally went...Okaros?

KABOOM!

Well, it looks like my Blow Up Anyone Trying To Steal My -Inators-inator just confirmed my suspicions about Zark.


Night 5, where Doofenshmirtz gets to play at Secret Agent himself by helping to defeat the Aldax Clone Army; this was a ton of fun to write. This was the last in-character post since I cannibalized my Night 6 IC post for the Vig shot.

Hellheart wrote:Perry the Platypus, come here and look at this. You remember Aldax, the guy with the alternate future version of himself that tried to shoot me? No? Ohhhh that's right, you were still missing after I opened the box with my Unlock-inator. Well alternate-future Aldax tried to shoot me with no provocation whatsoever using an ENORMOUS rocket launcher that would have destroyed the entire building, and I saved everybody in here by defeating him in single combat! Too bad you weren't there to see it yourself, there was a ceremony and everything.

Anyway, look through this skylight...carefully. No, not that skylight, all you'll see through that one is Ryvvn (Seer) and he's probably human. Look through this skylight. See...there's Aldax, and there's Aldax again, and there's a group of 4 Aldax, and here's a dozen more walking into the room. At first I thought this was Aldax's doing...you know, the original Aldax, although to be honest I'm not sure which one is the original anymore. But I think that the alternate Aldax's set this up on their own, and they're bringing in more of themselves to make an evil army to take over the tri-state area.

Hang on Perry the Platypus. I've wanted to know what being a secret agent is like ever since I pitched Doof 'n Puss to that executive...you remember him, you were tied up right next to him. So either I go with you, or I warn Aldax...well, one of him anyway.

Rolleyes, shrug, gesture

Oh goody! What should my secret agent name be? SuperDoof? Schmirtzman? So you have a plan for this, right? PLEASE tell me that you're not going to just barge in there without knowing what you're up against like you always do to foil my my evil schemes. There's two of us and an entire army of them, and they're all armed to the teeth and I don't think they'll be happy to see us. Okay there's the door to the room, we can turn back for help now---what are you doing Perry the Platypus, no don't push me through the--

Cue long scene where Doofenshmirtz comically fails at everything he tries, and is saved from multiple fatal situations by either Perry the Platypus or his own sheer ineptitude resolving in his favor. Meanwhile, Perry the Platypus singlehandedly defeats the entire army of clones mostly by using Doofenshmirtz as bait, eventually culminating in the destruction of a portal machine that the Aldax army used to bring in new members.

We did it! Did you see how many people I punched down? Don't argue with me Perry the Platypus, that's my titanium arm you were using to club those guys. I feel so invigorated! So this is what it's like to foil an evil plan! You know I could get used to this. Well, by "this," I don't mean the parts when...you know, they tore off both of my arms, or when I was swung around by the fire hydrant in my leg, or when they were swinging me at you like a club. I meant the parts where I did something useful, like when I showed you this army in the first place!

Hey, isn't that Aldax lying dead over there? Well I mean they're all Aldax, but that looks like the original Aldax. I guess he was part of the plot all along, who knew?
Last edited by Hellheart on 01 Apr 2014, 14:23:10, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The End

Postby Okaros » 01 Apr 2014, 14:22:19

That PJ wrote:Was quite happy when PMs were removed. I don't mind PMs in theory--or teams--but I think it was unbalanced in this execution.


I actually prefer games with PMs disabled, I think (or as limited-functionality powers in the more special-y games). Fully unlimited PMs add an extra political dimension to things that I'd simply prefer wasn't there. (the fact that I prefer them to be disabled doesn't stop me from abusing the heck out of them when they're around, as this game demonstrates)

Somebody commented in the dead thread that for a Quantum game PMs are almost a requirement since it gives the players something to do during the early-to-mid game where nobody's resolved yet. While true, I wonder if the mini-events from rekard's Draker Kingdom game might serve as an adequate source of replacement entertainment. Those were *very* fun and with a little tweaking I don't think they'd interfere with the Quantum rules much/at all.
I kind of assume Okaros is out to backstab me until proven otherwise. - DOM

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Re: The End

Postby dferrantino » 01 Apr 2014, 14:28:00

Okaros wrote:
That PJ wrote:Was quite happy when PMs were removed. I don't mind PMs in theory--or teams--but I think it was unbalanced in this execution.


I actually prefer games with PMs disabled, I think (or as limited-functionality powers in the more special-y games). Fully unlimited PMs add an extra political dimension to things that I'd simply prefer wasn't there. (the fact that I prefer them to be disabled doesn't stop me from abusing the heck out of them when they're around, as this game demonstrates)

Somebody commented in the dead thread that for a Quantum game PMs are almost a requirement since it gives the players something to do during the early-to-mid game where nobody's resolved yet. While true, I wonder if the mini-events from rekard's Draker Kingdom game might serve as an adequate source of replacement entertainment. Those were *very* fun and with a little tweaking I don't think they'd interfere with the Quantum rules much/at all.

I'm trying to figure out exactly what would happen were I to ban PMs for the entire game, and I can't figure what would happen. The way I see it, either nothing interesting will happen for the first few days, or people will jump right into the gaming of the system that happened after I banned them in this game. IMO, neither of those are good solutions, as the former makes the early game boring and the latter makes the endgame boring.

It also might just be a flaw in Quantum in general.

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Re: The End

Postby Hellheart » 01 Apr 2014, 14:32:10

Doofenshmirtz Normal PM's

This is to Ryvvn and Okaros

Hellheart wrote:Oh wow, an evil alliance, I've heard about this sort of thing but I never seem to get any invitations and nobody ever returns my calls so I pretty much gave up on the whole thing. Is this an official thing where I have to send in money and I get a bumper sticker or something? I'd like to show off my new evil alliance but a bumper sticker really doesn't work for that sort of thing, I mean I don't even drive anywhere since Norm does all my shopping for me.

I don't mind participating, but one of you could be Perry the Platypus in disguise, trying to figure out my evil plan even though I tell him my evil plan almost immediately. So I'll be watching you, and by you I mean the box, because that's where Perry the Platypus is right now. I think.


Doof can't accept this alliance with sphenodont for obvious reasons.

Hellheart wrote:So, Perry the Platypus presents a poorly-planned proposal: a peace pact! You are not a human or a wolf, Perry the Platypus - how stupid do you think I am?

On second thought, maybe you don't remember that you're a platypus. I know I punched several holes in that box for air, but I made them really small because it'd be really stupid to have a locked box trap if you can stick your hand through and unlock the box. I hope you aren't starting to hallucinate.

(( Quoting prior message under the assumption that you didn't BCC it to dferrantino ))

sphenodont wrote::flail:

So... I have no idea what I'm doing in this game. I should, but I don't.

Would you be interested in having no idea what I'm doing in this game together? I can promise you with all certainty that I am either a human or I am a wolf.


The next three are to Zark, who was RP'ing Lucifer and proposed an alliance.

For whatever reason, Zark didn't comment on how I went from "I'll never sign anything!" to "where do I sign?" in 2 consecutive PM's. I lampshade this in the Evil Alliance Forum by saying that I "even got to sign the guestbook with my own blood!" or something to that effect :lol:

Hellheart wrote:Is this some sort of cult? Because I accidentally joined one of those last year and it was all about cleansing the spirit and reincarnation...all that religious mumbo-jumbo is not my thing.

Now if this is an evil alliance, that's something I'd be interested in. Unless it involves some sort of contract - I'm not signing anything. I've seen what happens when somebody does that.

You know, you look a lot different on TV. How do I know that you're the real thing and not Perry the Platypus in disguise?


Hellheart wrote:I'll be honest, you totally lost me when you started talking about cults. I sort of, you know, spaced out until I saw that comic. Have I shown you my comic book collection? I have...well...technically I have no comic books because they were all destroyed when Perry the Platypus broke my Declutter-inator. But I have pictures...no, Perry destroyed those too. Curse you, Perry the Platypus!

Anyway, I'm glad this isn't a cult. Where do I sign?


Hellheart wrote:
7-Zark-7 wrote:I once knew a man who wandered in the wilderness hungry for 40 days. I offered him food, I offered him drink, he declined both.

Really, 40 days without food? How overweight was this guy when he got lost? That would be one hell of a diet.

Are you sure he didn't just wait until your back was turned to eat the food? I mean, that's what I'd do in that situation.

...

I wouldn't do something like that right now, of course. That was just a hypothetical. Please stop looking at me like that.


This is sphenodont again, who correctly surmised that I mauled him and yelled at me for it. There's a subtle little touch here that amused me: sphenodont says "Werewolf pact," but Doof hears "Werewolf pack" and freaks the fuck out.

Hellheart wrote:You can't fool me, Perry the Platypus! I know that you'd...attack me directly because you've escaped my trap...oh come on, how can you use my trap as an avatar and not be Perry the Platypus? You know, you could have just told me that and saved both of us a lot of time and effort.

So you're saying that if I want to do something useful, I need to hunt down and "resolve" entire packs of werewolves, whatever that means. I'm just going to go out on a limb here and say that would probably not end well for me. If you give me a week I could build a Werewolf Pack Resolve-inator. That way I can skip all of the boring parts and get straight to the part where I'm winning.

Otherwise I'm open to suggestions as long as they're suitably evil.


Sphenodont says that DOM could easily be an alpha and wants me to help take DOM out.

Hellheart wrote:Now that you mention it, he has been awfully quiet for a dastardly old man. And dastardly men who don't really associate with the public are definitely dang...important contributors to our society! Unless they're too old. And when I say "too old," I mean "older than I am."

He's probably talking to somebody, right? Other than himself, I mean. Like, let's say I vote for him and a huge pack of wolves comes running after me before I can finish my Wolf Pack Resolve-inator. Should I move my vote so they chase after somebody else, or am I supposed to sacrifice for some unknown cause that could mean a lot of things that have nothing to do with evil?


I personally think that rekard has such poor grooming habits because he doesn't want to risk killing himself with his own finger.

Hellheart wrote:I followed rekard when I first got here. You know that shedding problem that he says is just something glandular, right before he points at you and forces you to run?

Yeah, that's really fur.


This is to Admetus, basically an in-character version of "why the hell didn't you PM me yet? It really put me off. I'm only contacting you because two of us got Human vision results."

Hellheart wrote:(( Quick OOC clarification: "evil" has nothing to do with "wolf" - in context here, it would more properly mean "human" ))

I thought I recognized you from the cover of last month's "Greatest Evil Villians in Disguise," but then you didn't know the secret handshake or the secret password and you didn't say a word about any of my evil schemes.

I was spying on Perry the Platypus last night and he ran across another secret agent. So I said to myself: "what would another secret agent be doing here if I'm the only evil villain on board?" Perry the Platypus heard me somehow and they scurried off. It all makes sense now - if your nemesis is also here, you're not going to give up your disguise in public that easily.

I know that villains usually don't work together - separate hideouts, separate schemes, don't keep all your eggs in one basket, yadda yadda. You know how they say two heads are better than one, though, and I only have one spare head for my Advisor-inator so I was wondering if you had a spare head I could borrow. Don't worry I'll return it, although it may not be in the best condition after Perry the Platypus foils my next evil scheme.

Great disguise, by the way. I would have never guessed that you're really a penguin!

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Re: The End

Postby Admetus » 01 Apr 2014, 14:57:26

I hadn't PM'd you at all, Hellheart, because I wanted to weaken those metagame assumptions people might hold about me. This way one can't assume that I'm talking with some people because I usually do, or that who I choose to talk to means anything at all. It's simply a different game.

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Re: The End

Postby rekard » 01 Apr 2014, 15:51:07

Ignore the metagame and your game will improve. Assuming someone has to do something as proof of character and allegianceis weak and flawed and has never really proven anything. It only leads to failure and to being predictable.

For example, even though I talk about revenge this and revenge that, I never really believe in that kind of thing. This was the first game ever that I actually targeted Zark cuz I thought it to be practical to stop him going after me.

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Re: The End

Postby Visigoth » 01 Apr 2014, 16:12:45

Thanks for the states dferrantino.

I really should try and understand quantum more, but I liken it as a bit of a vacation from the normal games. I tend to play a lot more randomly and just wing it. Also probably an oddity in that I do try to be a human and work towards a human victory as I'm guessing most are going towards that elusive wolf victory.

Bit of shame that I didn't end up the Seer since it would have been the one game where I could have been the Seer and lived longer than a day or two.

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Re: The End

Postby Admetus » 01 Apr 2014, 17:17:17

rekard wrote:Ignore the metagame and your game will improve. Assuming someone has to do something as proof of character and allegianceis weak and flawed and has never really proven anything. It only leads to failure and to being predictable.

For example, even though I talk about revenge this and revenge that, I never really believe in that kind of thing. This was the first game ever that I actually targeted Zark cuz I thought it to be practical to stop him going after me.

Shrug. The fact that it came up this game, and Hellheart assumed it was because I was hiding something... I think that speaks for itself. Nothing sinister! Just being different.

Rekard -- it's funny, I was worried you'd be irritated that I had pushed a plan that was intended to lynch you while you were an Alpha candidate. But a) you wouldn't have minded being a wolf, and b) you were backstabbing me at the same time (just with fewer people involved). ;)

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Re: The End

Postby Hellheart » 01 Apr 2014, 17:20:41

rekard wrote:Ignore the metagame and your game will improve. Assuming someone has to do something as proof of character and allegianceis weak and flawed and has never really proven anything. It only leads to failure and to being predictable.

For example, even though I talk about revenge this and revenge that, I never really believe in that kind of thing. This was the first game ever that I actually targeted Zark cuz I thought it to be practical to stop him going after me.

(( I figured people would guess that I did your room, but it amuses me that you just naturally reinforce that image I have of you :lol: ))

This room makes me a little uneasy. I know that sounds silly: it's a room, it just sits there and I can walk through it just fine. But if it's all the same to you Perry the Platypus, I'm not going to waste time here.

Here's a copy of A Modest Proposal. He's written some notes on it, which say: "Wolf. Twisting facts and logic to create a very unrealistic representaiton of his situation and plan. Plays it off like he's being completely reasonable."

Here's a copy of Art of War - you know, the one by Sun Tizz-oo. He's got notes on this one too: "Poorly laid out, too much irrelevant information. Some statements are too vague. No supporting evidence or arguments - why should I believe this guy?"

Here's a letter from a woman: "I know I should've gotten this in way sooner than 10 minutes before the deadline, especially since this is my last loan payment, but it's been a crazy month. I've gotten engaged, my uncle died and left me several million dollars, and I saved one of your family members from almost certain doom. I hope you don't hold the timing of this payment against me."

And here's his partial reply...or maybe these are more notes. I get the feeling it's hard to tell sometimes: "Late message with unlikely reasoning conveniently lets her off the hook. Very wolfy. Is already assuming that I'm going to accuse her of being late on purpose = wolfy overdefensiveness. Lynch ASAP."

I don't know if he's missing the point or if he just doesn't care what the point is. Can you imagine his reaction to one of my evil monologues? He'd string me up before I finished the 3rd sentence!

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Re: The End

Postby Hellheart » 01 Apr 2014, 17:37:47

(( Since I haven't said it yet: GREAT game dferrantino. Glad I got an opportunity to RP a role that quickly become more important to me than actually playing the game. It was a blast, beginning to end.

I hope I made a good ambassador for Phineas and Ferb. I think My Little Pony unfairly gets all of the accolades for having a large add-on demographic, because Phineas and Ferb have the same effect with arguably a much wider appeal on top of it. The show is brilliant through-and-through. ))

Nothing sinister my ass! You were scheming with my ally behind my back! Along with pretty much everyone else in the entire game!

Of course, I had already known that was going on with Okaros, but to think you were a part of it...!

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Re: The End

Postby Okaros » 01 Apr 2014, 17:46:52

Hellheart wrote:Of course, I had already known that was going on with Okaros, but to think you were a part of it...!


*takes off his disguise and puts on his hat*
I kind of assume Okaros is out to backstab me until proven otherwise. - DOM

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Re: The End

Postby Hellheart » 01 Apr 2014, 17:52:01

Okaros wrote:
Hellheart wrote:Of course, I had already known that was going on with Okaros, but to think you were a part of it...!


*takes off his disguise and puts on his hat*

PERRY THE PLATYPUS! I was working with YOU the entire time!? How did you even manage to speak?

(( I'm laughing my ass off right now ))

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Re: The End

Postby Okaros » 01 Apr 2014, 18:15:56

*holds up the VillainousMonologue-inator that Doofensmirtz#73 created while standing idle in line on Day 3*

"Hahahah! You fell right into my trap, Doofy the Doofensmirtz! While I pretended to be your ally secretly betraying you, I was in fact the hero secretly foiling your evil schemes all along! Now nothing can stop me from taking over THE ENTIRE TRI-STAbekzsszhz"*thunk*

*smashes the VillainousMonologue-inator before more evil can ensue*
I kind of assume Okaros is out to backstab me until proven otherwise. - DOM

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Re: The End

Postby Hellheart » 01 Apr 2014, 18:33:20

(( This reply took forever because I had to stop crying first :lol: ))

Okaros wrote:*holds up the VillainousMonologue-inator that Doofensmirtz#73 created while standing idle in line on Day 3*

"Hahahah! You fell right into my trap, Doofy the Doofensmirtz! While I pretended to be your ally secretly betraying you, I was in fact the hero secretly foiling your evil schemes all along! Now nothing can stop me from taking over THE ENTIRE TRI-STAbekzsszhz"*thunk*

*smashes the VillainousMonologue-inator before more evil can ensue*

CURSE YOU PERRY THE PLATYPUS!

I know that wasn't really one of my -inators, but something came over me and I just couldn't help myself.

Very clever Perry the Platypus. You remembered Copy-inator and knew that the Doofenshmirtz that lost the game was just a copy. Even Norm couldn't figure that one out, if he had even bothered trying instead of feeding the Aldax clones!

Look, I have a lab coat now! I'm one of you!

You know, they should've all disappeared when the original died. Or when you and I killed all of them and the original before that. Must be a Quantum thing.

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Re: The End

Postby Hellheart » 01 Apr 2014, 18:48:34

Come on Perry the Platypus, I need to re-stock their pantry since I lost. Let's go shopping for...rummages in his lab coat for a list...4,000 potatoes, 300 pounds of bacon, a truckload of onions, hundreds of pounds of assorted meat, 1,400 jars of Mayonnaise...

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Re: The End

Postby Aldax » 01 Apr 2014, 20:50:51

I really wanted to expand the color RP to a wolf, but it is damned hard to do it on Opera Mini, so I ended up dropping it in the end... I had a high expectation to introduce Wolf-Aldax just to make the set complete
Moral of the story: Never self-vig. - rekard

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Re: The End

Postby Hellheart » 01 Apr 2014, 22:06:27

Aldax wrote:I really wanted to expand the color RP to a wolf, but it is damned hard to do it on Opera Mini, so I ended up dropping it in the end... I had a high expectation to introduce Wolf-Aldax just to make the set complete

Your clones did more than enough wolfing as it is. Charlene is NOT going to be happy when she hears about this.

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Re: The End

Postby Ryvvn » 01 Apr 2014, 22:44:11

Been catching up on the past few days, so going to consolidate a few responses to things here as I come across them...

-----

Hellheart Day 7 wrote:If you start maintaining a spreadsheet, Necklessone and I have vote tracking and tally-generating code for Google Docs and Excel, respectively. Don't waste your effort unless you really, really want to do it yourself.

I personally prefer to do all my own tracking because it helps me pick up on things that I need to see to get my feels as they were (see my neckless squat from the Miller's Hollow game).

-----

Hellheart Day 8 wrote:This will be a fitting end. My resolving as a wolf and losing is karmic retribution for what happened to Ryvvn. The guy that I feel got treated the worst by the people he was working with will end up being a co-victor when all is said and done. You earned it, That PJ - I seriously doubt that we pull this out if I didn't have you working with me yesterday.


Evil Alliance Hellheart wrote:
Evil Alliance Ryvvn wrote:
Evil Alliance Okaros wrote:I'll let you two fight over who gets to be the wolf in that relationship. ;)

rawr ;)

That one's easy. Ryvvn is ALWAYS a wolf :lol:

-----

Okaros Dead wrote:Given the impending results of this game, I think the lesson I should take away from it is clear:
When I trust people they turn out to be horrible traitors. Clearly I need to lie more. ;)

I mused a bit on why you and I are seemingly drawn to work together, but I think the simplest answer is that we both have a similarly sinister slant to how we make the game fun for ourselves. Also, I did try to warn you:

Sage-like Ryvvn wrote:only a fool allows a scorned player to remain a threat.

-----

dferrantino Dead wrote:
rekard Dead wrote:He could have at least tried to lie his way into a win and cause paranoia among people, since well who knows if everyone is saying the truth.

The thing is (and he doesn't know this so I can't fault him) Nitestorm only mauled him because he put in Ryvvn and rand() chose Hellheart. He could have actually done this quite easily.

Should have at least tried.

You'd have to be new or completely dense to even imagine Hellheart taking the selfish win over the puzzle solve.

Lie for victory? Does he look like me?!

-----

And that's just from the day and dead threads, still have all those PMs and alliances to catch up on....

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Re: The End

Postby Hellheart » 01 Apr 2014, 23:24:36

You'd have to be new or completely dense to even imagine Hellheart taking the selfish win over the puzzle solve.

Lie for victory? Does he look like me?!

Even if I had no other reason for the sacrifice, trying to win opens the door for Nitestorm to resolve as the alpha and win.

That would've been like Meta4 winning. It just leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

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Re: The End

Postby Meta4 » 02 Apr 2014, 05:51:03

Hellheart wrote:That would've been like Meta4 winning. It just leaves a bad taste in my mouth.


Don't hate the player, hate the game!
"...it continues to be a bad idea to give in to the urge to lynch Meta4." -Admetus

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Re: The End

Postby That PJ » 02 Apr 2014, 06:12:28

dferrantino wrote:
Okaros wrote:Somebody commented in the dead thread that for a Quantum game PMs are almost a requirement since it gives the players something to do during the early-to-mid game where nobody's resolved yet. While true, I wonder if the mini-events from rekard's Draker Kingdom game might serve as an adequate source of replacement entertainment. Those were *very* fun and with a little tweaking I don't think they'd interfere with the Quantum rules much/at all.

I'm trying to figure out exactly what would happen were I to ban PMs for the entire game, and I can't figure what would happen. The way I see it, either nothing interesting will happen for the first few days, or people will jump right into the gaming of the system that happened after I banned them in this game. IMO, neither of those are good solutions, as the former makes the early game boring and the latter makes the endgame boring.

It also might just be a flaw in Quantum in general.

I'll have to look up the Draker Kingdom stuff. I read the rules for that game and was kind of overwhelmed; tabled it as an archive to explore later.

PMs do seem important for Quantum, especially with an invisible odds list. But I think having PMs as an infinite resource is problematic. Offhand, my inexperienced guess at how one might rein that in:
1. Limit the number of PMs per day each player can send.
2. Limit the number of people each player can be in two-way conversation with (essentially 'locking' partnerships).

The first suggestion treats PMs exactly like a resource--you have to choose your communications carefully, budget the information you're disclosing and the very real possibility that your PM will not be responded to.

The second basically creates a team Quantum game where everyone chooses their own team--or teams, if the pool of players you can talk to his of moderate size. Limited to contacting 2 players? You've broken the game into teams of 3. Limited to 4? You can start networking alliances, much like happened in this game (though with a known cap). Makes the meta game a little more manageable if you can say 'Okay, Okaros is talking to Hellheart and Zark and Admetus in addition to me, but he's definitely unable to talk to anybody beyond that.' Part of the puzzle becomes figuring out the relationships--except that the upper limit of those relationships isn't the entire pool of players.

PMs aside, I think there are a few other things that hurt this game--or at least my ability to play it.
1. Missed mauls, Seers, etc. Looking at the Dead thread, it seems this was sometimes handled via random chance and other times just allowed to be missed. A consistent backup plan would be good in the future. For instance, we had to assume Nitestorm actively chose to maul someone, not that it was up to Random chance. I didn't even realize that was a thing happening.

2. An understanding of how the hell one is supposed to win Quantum. I realize now that the best strategy is probably to keep one's options open as long as possible to resolve as the side most likely to win. Barring that, players seem to have some success with trying to brute force the system, or making big alliances, or working a late game human alliance to game the odds. I assumed we were left in the dark about all of this to figure out our own way to winning, but comments in the Dead Thread (from dferrantino in particular) make it pretty clear that we were expected us to have some kind of notion of how to play Quantum vs. a standard wolf game, and that we were by and large 'playing it wrong.' This is very frustrating in hindsight. If there was a way we were 'supposed' to be playing, why the hell did nobody say so? An ally, the moderator, and unaffiliated bystander--whoever. Just leaves a very sour taste in my mouth about this game, I guess.

3. Meta4. I still have no freaking idea what the hell he was doing.
PJ's general resignation towards fate is good enough. -Okaros
Then he went and shot himself, saved me and got himself lynched because of it. You magnificent fool! -Mister E. Meat

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Re: The End

Postby dferrantino » 02 Apr 2014, 06:30:28

That PJ wrote:2. An understanding of how the hell one is supposed to win Quantum. I realize now that the best strategy is probably to keep one's options open as long as possible to resolve as the side most likely to win. Barring that, players seem to have some success with trying to brute force the system, or making big alliances, or working a late game human alliance to game the odds. I assumed we were left in the dark about all of this to figure out our own way to winning, but comments in the Dead Thread (from dferrantino in particular) make it pretty clear that we were expected us to have some kind of notion of how to play Quantum vs. a standard wolf game, and that we were by and large 'playing it wrong.' This is very frustrating in hindsight. If there was a way we were 'supposed' to be playing, why the hell did nobody say so? An ally, the moderator, and unaffiliated bystander--whoever. Just leaves a very sour taste in my mouth about this game, I guess.

Eh, this was expected, and is exactly why I didn't say anything except in the dead thread. Learning the "right way" to play comes from experience with the game, just like every other game of Werewolf. As I've GM'd 3 (4?) of these already, I've got first-hand knowledge of exactly how the game plays out and how specific scenarios effect the game. From this perspective, there's always a "right way" and a "wrong way" to play.

You guys don't have that perspective. If I came across as expecting you guys to play a specific way, I apologize. I absolutely don't expect anyone to play optimally, even myself if someone else were to run one of these. Noone has all of the information but the GM and the Dead.

eta: You'll see plenty of comments like that in a regular wolf game, too, they're just generally more about looking at voting patterns as opposed to the controlling your own destiny with your night actions. It's really no different from that.

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Re: The End

Postby sphenodont » 02 Apr 2014, 06:41:17

That PJ wrote:3. Meta4. I still have no freaking idea what the hell he was doing.


He was channeling RaveBomb.

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Re: The End

Postby Mister E. Meat » 02 Apr 2014, 09:28:29

sphenodont wrote:
That PJ wrote:3. Meta4. I still have no freaking idea what the hell he was doing.


He was channeling RaveBomb.

This is true, but in reality what he was doing was gaming the way that quantum works to collapse himself into being the seer. Of course, the way he was doing it was of absolutely no use since all he would have been able to tell anyone was that DOM is/was human.

Thinking about it more, I don't know if you even need a seer in a quantum game. All it does is make the "wolf" team more likely to lose if the "humans" get really lucky and have a seer collapse early or have someone sharing info who when killed turns out to be the seer.

Additionally, when we run this again, I'd like to see the percentages again by player number at the beginning of the day but perhaps with no PMs or very limited PMs for the first few days to keep things moving. That does restrict the amount of info you can share significantly (unless you like to be collapsed by others). It also let's you know how "wolfy" you are in relation to others so that maybe you actually try to collapse to that state when it makes sense but it also can tip off the other players when you're making that play.

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Re: The End

Postby necklessone » 02 Apr 2014, 10:42:31

As I forgot to mention it before, thanks for the game df.

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Re: The End

Postby Hellheart » 02 Apr 2014, 12:24:18

Mister E. Meat wrote:
sphenodont wrote:
That PJ wrote:3. Meta4. I still have no freaking idea what the hell he was doing.


He was channeling RaveBomb.

This is true, but in reality what he was doing was gaming the way that quantum works to collapse himself into being the seer. Of course, the way he was doing it was of absolutely no use since all he would have been able to tell anyone was that DOM is/was human.

Thinking about it more, I don't know if you even need a seer in a quantum game. All it does is make the "wolf" team more likely to lose if the "humans" get really lucky and have a seer collapse early or have someone sharing info who when killed turns out to be the seer.

Additionally, when we run this again, I'd like to see the percentages again by player number at the beginning of the day but perhaps with no PMs or very limited PMs for the first few days to keep things moving. That does restrict the amount of info you can share significantly (unless you like to be collapsed by others). It also let's you know how "wolfy" you are in relation to others so that maybe you actually try to collapse to that state when it makes sense but it also can tip off the other players when you're making that play.

I'm pretty certain that the percentages by player number made things way too easy to manipulate. That said, I do think there needs to be an additional vector for information if PM's are limited...it just needs to be really limited. Like if a numbered player list somehow is the only way to do this, the percentages from large swaths of players are averaged and presented and that's it. It at least gives you a rough idea of who could be more wolfy, but if the group it refers to is large enough you can make virtually no other conclusions from that without a lot of help from the people involved.

I like That PJ's idea of limited number of people you can communicate with. A side effect of this is that the players who weren't allied this last game might feel more incentive to do so because it's like a "quota" you want to hit.

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Re: The End

Postby dferrantino » 02 Apr 2014, 12:28:06

There's a large subset of people (like, more than half the people on this board) who don't get involved in the PM aspect at all, due to either personal preference or lack of availability. It's pretty much always going to be difficult to get them to PM others no matter what, so I don't think that's a solution, either.

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Re: The End

Postby dferrantino » 02 Apr 2014, 12:31:04

Also yeah, the visible percentages were way too easy to manipulate, but I need to go back and see how it was implemented. IDR how many iterations I went through before I settled on "no tables except for the dead" so IDK if we ever tested it with the tables available but a complete moratorium on discussing them.

It's also really hard to ban certain discussions without watching the threads like a hawk. It seems certain people will always figure out a way to skirt the system.

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Re: The End

Postby Mister E. Meat » 02 Apr 2014, 12:50:43

necklessone wrote:As I forgot to mention it before, thanks for the game df.

Gah, same here! Much appreciated dferr.

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Re: The End

Postby Okaros » 02 Apr 2014, 13:12:57

dferrantino wrote:It's also really hard to ban certain discussions without watching the threads like a hawk. It seems certain people will always figure out a way to skirt the system.


Yeah, I think we started drifting into that territory on the last couple of days when people started talking about "If your dead percentage is upper-20s or low-30s you've probably been mauled by two people" and such.

(Anonymized) Tables available to everyone but no PMs and no public discussion might be interesting to try, particularly if you run with the idea of pre-seeding the roles a little (your evens-can't-be-seer, odds-can't-be-vig, etc... stuff from the dead thread) so that there's a more differentiated initial state for people to try and scheme with/around.
I kind of assume Okaros is out to backstab me until proven otherwise. - DOM

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7-zark-7
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Re: The End

Postby 7-zark-7 » 02 Apr 2014, 16:50:08

rekard wrote:For example, even though I talk about revenge this and revenge that, I never really believe in that kind of thing. This was the first game ever that I actually targeted Zark cuz I thought it to be practical to stop him going after me.


You know, I'm surprised at how consistently we bang heads, & I specifically started this game with "don't nuke rekard" as my mindset.

A day one vigshot kind of messed with that unspoken philosophy, so I adjusted my goal: to get you to resolve as Human. Ironically, and despite being the two forum hosts in opposition, we both died as members of the same winning team. So, um, mission accomplished?

On a more serious note - truce. I do enjoy our little spats, but I'm not out to get you.

More in a bit,

7z7
"Zark Helmet is too awesome NOT to use!" -Smirker
"The possibility that it's Zark simply murdering someone at a whim each day... would be delightful if true, but I worry that that's too simple a solution." - Okaros

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rekard
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Re: The End

Postby rekard » 02 Apr 2014, 17:14:02

Lol. I know. I thought it more like : "Let's see this time, I have never tried doing that".


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