Finale: Glorious Cheese

[dferrantino]

Well you can blame Smirker for that loss on Game 25.

Oh, I started blaming him in the Dead Thread less than 15 minutes after his death.

Which it seems fitting to point out now that I've finally overtaken him as post count leader!

Because there's no courtesy for the Courtesan-- suck it, Smirker!

...only 390 posts to go...

[Simple_Simon]

:snipped:

Dude I'm not 100% what you're on about but I am not here to fight or argue with you, our perceived events lists vs actual. I have absolutely no intention of arguing with you regarding anything in the past game. At no point did I ever say anything was actually wrong, cheated, or otherwise. I would appreciate it if you would extend me the courtesy of not reading things into my posts that are not there.

I can't even understand what the fuck you're so pissed off about, and I'm not interested to be completely fucking honest. My only points brought up were from my personal stand point and offered no insinuations of wrong doing or accusations thereof. At no point did I mention that I feel anyone cheated or that a specific rule (unwritten or otherwise) was misused or unfair. I thought this game was awesome fun and really enjoyed playing it. Win or lose, I had a great time and have offered nothing but praise to everyone (you included) for an awesome time. There were literally ups and downs and everything in between. It was good fun.

The post that seems to have you so upset was nothing more than constructive conversation regarding some (ultimately very minor) points I had with this game. No outlandish claims or accusations. Some mistakes you see, some of us don't. Flat out I am not as good as you (hell even some of the newbies have a better handle on this game than I do). I will say it time and time again I am not any good at this game. I do almost always have a blast playing it, so that's what I am here for. So please, please take this the nicest way possible...

fuck off.

[rekard]

1) While I personally understand the "protected list" concept, even when it was started, my argument was: If you want to live by that code, so be it, but that is a personal preference of yours. The voting for people who voted for people on their protected list, and the other peer-pressure to get other people to live by that ~unwritten rule, I don't agree with, and I don't particularly like. You can not-vote for whomever you want, but I'm going to vote for whomever I want.

Yes, I feel no compunction against making DOM regret his choice of my role in the next game ASAP.

Personally, I tend to match DOM's view point on this. I have my own guides for who I won't lynch/maul (primarily newbies on the first couples of days). For me, it's about making the game fun and encouraging participation. I don't want someone to quit because they always die early; I don't want people to be quiet because they'll get killed if they talk too much; I don't want the RPers to die because they haven't made any analysis by day 3. I never know how the balance will work out on a given game, though, and the only time the non-newbie rules come up is if someone specifically asks me to vote for someone that I'm trying to keep alive. Other people can and should vote for whoever they want.

This a great argument.

I mostly only "protect" those people that I think have gotten the shaft too many times like Ravebomb there. It's about balance, but mostly just on Day 1 because there is no information. Day 2 onwards, it mostly depends on what the player does. In the end, it's not always cool to die early various games in a row. It doesn't feel good not being able to play various times in a row, so I personally consider that aspect important.

[Anvilfang]

Hind sight is 20/20. I tried my best.

Well, you yourself suggested on Night 5 that keeping me alive might make sense ...

I have no clue what my post has to do with you.

My "Hind sight is 20/20" was in response to everyone chiming in with how everything were errors at the end.


Do you guys always bicker like this at the end of every game? Really makes losing way worse than it should.

[Ozymandias]

Dude I'm not 100% what you're on about but I am not here to fight or argue with you.

So please, please take this the nicest way possible...

fuck off.

Here's the thing, simon-- the second statement doesn't bother me at all. I don't mind being told to fuck off, and the way you did it was kind of funny.

But what does bother me is you starting your post with that weaselly first statement. If you're going to be a provocateur, then man up and OWN it.

Here's another example ...

I have absolutely no intention of arguing with you regarding anything in the past game. At no point did I ever say anything was actually wrong, cheated, or otherwise. I would appreciate it if you would extend me the courtesy of not reading things into my posts that are not there. I can't even understand what the fuck you're so pissed off about, and I'm not interested to be completely fucking honest. My only points brought up were from my personal stand point and offered no insinuations of wrong doing or accusations thereof.

Well, you said, in your previous post, that:

There are however ways to game this honor system to personal advantage. Ozy either willingly or unwittingly provided a perfect example in this game.

You were clearly insinuating that I may have intentionally acted dishonorably. You may be too chickenshit to admit it now, but that's exactly what you were doing. So I felt compelled to address the ridiculousness of that implicit accusation.

But you know what? I don't really expect you to understand me. Because if you truly "felt cheated and lost any desire to play" for about a full day after simply reading Rave's utterly innocuous post, then I don't see how I could possibly ever hope to have a rational discussion with you.

[Rictus]

Hind sight is 20/20. I tried my best.

Well, you yourself suggested on Night 5 that keeping me alive might make sense ...

I have no clue what my post has to do with you.

My "Hind sight is 20/20" was in response to everyone chiming in with how everything were errors at the end.


Do you guys always bicker like this at the end of every game? Really makes losing way worse than it should.

Well, it's happened before... I've been here since game 45ish (? The Die Harder one, I think) and every few months there's a few back and forth's. So it's best to start another game pretty quick so we can just lynch the bastard you disagree with.

[Ozymandias]

Hind sight is 20/20. I tried my best.

Well, you yourself suggested on Night 5 that keeping me alive might make sense ...

I have no clue what my post has to do with you.

My "Hind sight is 20/20" was in response to everyone chiming in with how everything were errors at the end.

Really? Because I'm the one who was Monday morning quarterbacking everybody, and you posted right after I did, so I just assumed you were talking about me.

Do you guys always bicker like this at the end of every game?

No, it takes two to bicker, so it generally only happens after games I've played in.

[Ryvvn]

Do you guys always bicker like this at the end of every game?

No, it takes two to bicker, so it generally only happens after games I've played in.

[Iron Clad Burrito]

Girls, girls, you're ALL pretty. Relax, dance, have another drink!

[Simple_Simon]

Dude I'm not 100% what you're on about but I am not here to fight or argue with you.

So please, please take this the nicest way possible...

fuck off.

Here's the thing, simon-- the second statement doesn't bother me at all. I don't mind being told to fuck off, and the way you did it was kind of funny.

But what does bother me is you starting your post with that weaselly first statement. If you're going to be a provocateur, then man up and OWN it.

Here's another example ...

I have absolutely no intention of arguing with you regarding anything in the past game. At no point did I ever say anything was actually wrong, cheated, or otherwise. I would appreciate it if you would extend me the courtesy of not reading things into my posts that are not there. I can't even understand what the fuck you're so pissed off about, and I'm not interested to be completely fucking honest. My only points brought up were from my personal stand point and offered no insinuations of wrong doing or accusations thereof.

Well, you said, in your previous post, that:

There are however ways to game this honor system to personal advantage. Ozy either willingly or unwittingly provided a perfect example in this game.

You were clearly insinuating that I may have intentionally acted dishonorably. You may be too chickenshit to admit it now, but that's exactly what you were doing. So I felt compelled to address the ridiculousness of that implicit accusation.

But you know what? I don't really expect you to understand me. Because if you truly "felt cheated and lost any desire to play" for about a full day after simply reading Rave's utterly innocuous post, then I don't see how I could possibly ever hope to have a rational discussion with you.

I'm going to start things off with a small note that I am not a pussy, too scared to tell you how it is. I think you are just far too fucking stupid or stubborn to stop frothing at the fucking mouth for a second to read what I actually wrote instead of putting your shit attitude all up in it and smearing it about like it's my shit. If you think for a fucking second I don't have the balls to talk to you like you want to be spoken to then you are completely up the wall insane.

Now that we have that out of the way let's get on to the meat of the post. If I understand you correctly you are upset because you feel I have called you a cheater, but not in so many words. I am terribly sorry you feel that way and that was not the intention of my post.

I was providing an example to illustrate my (mis)understanding of the unwritten rule. That's all I was using your name for. You provided a brilliant example to how the rule, as I incorrectly at the time understood it to be, could be used to personal gain. I did not say that you were aware you wouldn't be mauled and played accordingly. I never said that you gamed a rule to gain an advantage. I provided an example. I'm sorry I used you, I won't do it again.

Let me make this clear (I'm pretty sure I posted this earlier). I think you are a brilliant player. I am in awe of your skill and foresight. Neither qualities I have in spades for certain. I do not think you are cheat, I do not think you cheated and I do not think you actually believe I do.

I'm starting to believe this is some manner of trolling actually. Is that the point, to try and get yet another post game rise out of me? Maybe make me rage quit again? It's not going to work. The only person pissed off here is you. You're pissed off and what your reading, not what I am writing.

Here's what I meant to say in that line.

"Based on my understanding of this honor system it can be gamed to personal advantage. Ozy provided an example to this during this game. My understanding was that the honor system meant we couldn't target him with a maul immediately. I did not press for clarification on this during the game. From my current understanding this could be a method used to power play the first few days with immunity."

Now that is past tense. My understanding has since been corrected. You didn't game anything, there was nothing to game. I wasn't intending to show that you had either. I was intending to show that either my understanding of the rule was wrong or the rule itself was wrong. I did not mean that you personally chose to "cheat" or otherwise gain an unfair advantage.

I also have not mentioned the same about Rave either. You're also making a bigger deal out of that than is ever needed. My point wasn't the content of the post, it was the post itself. That's not the point though, you want to argue over the content. So let's do that shall we?

It's 11:25 pm I'm tired but waiting for the results of the day. The shining hopeful moment the new day thread pops up. I notice chatter between two people in a locked thread. I poke in to see what the fuss is. Oh it's a soon to be dead guy and an admin having some words. Wait a second, look at that post. Well I'm going to bed. I described my initial reaction to it, that does not make up my final thoughts about it. Initially I fucking hated onions. Now I eat them on everything.

Initially I felt screwed, yes. That passed when I woke up the next day and moved on to other things. My play quality didn't deminish (up until ICB got me CIV IV that is, fml). I didn't feel cheated and continued to play as best I can until I remembered I can't manage my time very well and is why I shouldn't play games like CIV with my morning coffee.

Anyway look, I am really truly sorry you feel that I said anything I didn't actually say but actually said without wanting to say it. I'm not actually a pussy, I have no issues telling you like it is. In all honesty I wouldn't be nearly this calm if I thought anyone actually cheated. I wouldn't have finished the game, I would have protested loud and clear for everyone to hear.

We done here?

[Simple_Simon]

Do you guys always bicker like this at the end of every game?

No, it takes two to bicker, so it generally only happens after games I've played in.

There needs to be more Brick Tamland in movies. Honestly I crack up everytime.

[DastardlyOldMan]

Do you guys always bicker like this at the end of every game? Really makes losing way worse than it should.

Yeah, sometime constructive criticism gets presented ala Sheldon Cooper, and it devolves a bit. Bear in mind that analytical minds don't always have the greatest social skills, so take everything here with a grain of salt. I've bitched & moaned myself at times, and sometimes it's external factors that contribute to me just being a dickhead. Last time (I think it was simon & I, actually), we took it to PMs once we were able to acknowledge that we were being dickheads.

The short answer is: Boyz, take it to PMs, please?

I'm not saying I agree or disagree with anyone here, and we've had some inputs into both the admin-factor and the protected-list-factor which were constructive - so both points raised were definitely valid. But if you want to argue insinuations or "I read this into that post of yours", well, we're all dirty liars here by nature, and you've lost the constructive criticism component and gotten closer to personal attacks, which isn't where anyone wants to end up.

(exception: I think we should all feel free to make personal attacks against Ionitor, but only because they've been proven true.)

[Ionitor]

(exception: I think we should all feel free to make personal attacks against Ionitor, but only because they've been proven true.)

But... but... *sigh*

Yes, they're all true. Even the one about the mongoose.

[sphenodont]

The mongoose thing wouldn't be a personal attack, though. It's more of a faux-pas "you don't mention Mommy's Drinking Problem when guests are over" sort of thing.

[Mister E. Meat]

Whew, just caught up with this day's back and forth.
To respond to Ozy, I hear what you're saying about letting you live since you had a lot of incorrect information (like 3 wolves in the human list) but at the same time you were starting to put together a strong human alliance. That primarily was the reason that I thought taking you out with Furin's power was the right way to go. I'm still not sure that was a mistake but I can see how framing you for someone else's kill might have been more beneficial.

A few mistakes that I noted was actually mauling Anzig. I think we might have been better off letting him live after I had been revealed as a wolf to see if the "he's human, he's human" would have led to them lynching him.

And as I also mentioned in the dead thread, I think that the wolves were really screwed long term in the game once power usage started coming out. I think that if a game like this happens again, the wolves need to be able to actually target every night and only corrupt one power. This way power sharing won't be an automatic "find the wolves" once we get to day 10 or so.

[Ozymandias]

Whew, just caught up with this day's back and forth.
To respond to Ozy, I hear what you're saying about letting you live since you had a lot of incorrect information (like 3 wolves in the human list) but at the same time you were starting to put together a strong human alliance. That primarily was the reason that I thought taking you out with Furin's power was the right way to go. I'm still not sure that was a mistake but I can see how framing you for someone else's kill might have been more beneficial.

Now that I think about it some more, perhaps not using Furin's power at all might have been your best move. That way, no would have known that his power was corrupted-- which I think someone (Visigoth? Hellheart?) mentioned at some point as a reason to doubt your humanity, since you knew who the HA was targeting. And even if you still mauled me that night, at least Zark would still be in the game to give simon and CAD Non-Elemental cover later on.

A few mistakes that I noted was actually mauling Anzig. I think we might have been better off letting him live after I had been revealed as a wolf to see if the "he's human, he's human" would have led to them lynching him.

But once dferrantino died, and there were just two Earth elmentals left-- Anzig and spheno-- I'm pretty sure spheno would still get lynched immediately anyway. And spheno's reveal as a Wolf would then make it almost impossible to maul Anzig, so I think killing him was the correct move. You needed to take Anzig out at some point.

And as I also mentioned in the dead thread, I think that the wolves were really screwed long term in the game once power usage started coming out. I think that if a game like this happens again, the wolves need to be able to actually target every night and only corrupt one power. This way power sharing won't be an automatic "find the wolves" once we get to day 10 or so.

Agreed. The rules of this skin (not just the "subset" rule, but also letting power-imbued players know both the element AND word they had been targeted by) made for a very difficult endgame for the Wolves-- particularly Elemental Wolves. That's why I think the Wolves' most likely winning scenarios involved getting simon or CAD to the endgame along with at least two Human Non-Elementals.

[Ozymandias]

Just read through all the Day 6 and 7 PMs:

Omega, you really did a great job solidifying the HA with those PMs-- nicely done!

And for those who haven't seen them, his PMs near the end of Day 5 were hilarious ...

[Ryvvn]

Just read through all the Day 6 and 7 PMs:

Omega, you really did a great job solidifying the HA with those PMs-- nicely done!

And for those who haven't seen them, his PMs near the end of Day 5 were hilarious ...

Pretty sure this one, from the Day 3/4 thread, is my personal favorite:

And the important one with all the fine details, Ozy -> RaveBomb:

What's up?

e: Furin gets a copy of that.

[Ozymandias]

Pretty sure this one, from the Day 3/4 thread, is my personal favorite:

And the important one with all the fine details, Ozy -> RaveBomb:

What's up?

e: Furin gets a copy of that.

Yeah, I sent that out in a panic about 30 seconds before the end of Day 3 because Zark was not acting like someone about to die and his vote switch to me freaked me out, especially after someone mentioned that he might be the Luggage, so I decided to use my PM-activated power to double Rave's vote on Zark.

Also, I kind of wanted to fuck with Rave, since earlier in the game he had called me out for lacking humor.

Hey Rave, was there anything funny in your response? (Rave sent me a PM back, because in my haste I had neglected to tell him he couldn't reply, but I didn't actually read his PM in case it contained any game-related info.)

[RaveBomb]

What's up?

You know, stuff... I presume that you've got a PM power for the day?

Maybe something I helped forge for you?

That's what I sent. It was such a nothing PM I had no idea what to do with it.